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WPF News Discussion of the WWPF meetings in Tulsa and related sidetracks.


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  #61  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:39 PM
Ronzo
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

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Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
Does anyone else see the irony of this post???
Absolutely.
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  #62  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:51 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

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Originally Posted by NLYP View Post

Hi Dan, yes the Board did vote that you couldn't belong to two org. One thing I thought interesting was, Johnny King turned in his license, and said to the board that he could not go the way the org. was going, He couldn't be in an org. that wouldn't uphold the beliefs that are in the manual. so he resigned publicly there at a board meeting.
...
I am not UPC and not familiar with the politics.
Who is Johnny King?
What office did he hold on the board?
Does he pastor a church, and is the church affiliated?
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  #63  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:53 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
The funny thing is....now...right NOW...the UPC would STILL be considered by most outsiders to be a conservative group.
Well, paraphrasing something Bro. Epley said,
Everyone is somebody's conservative and everyone is somebody's liberal
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  #64  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:54 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

As anyone who has studied church history knows the UPC and OP movement has not been the only ones with these problems.

Around 1936 Gresham Machen left the mainline Presbyterian church and founded the organization that I'm a part of. One of our ministers(John Frame) is a wonderful and kingdom minded man and wrote a long article about this. I won't post the article as it would be a waste of my effort but I will post the last portion of it where he summarizes and offers a few remedies.......It might sound familiar.

(From Machen's Warrior Children) Observations

1. I have enumerated 21 areas of conflict occurring in American conservative Reformed circles from 1936 to the present. [65] Under some of those headings I have mentioned subdivisions, subcontroversies. Most of these controversies have led to divisions in churches and denominations, harsh words exchanged between Christians. People have been told that they are not Reformed, even that they have denied the Gospel. Since Jesus presents love as what distinguishes his disciples from the world (John 13:34-35), this bitter fighting is anomalous in a Christian fellowship. Reformed believers need to ask what has driven these battles. To what extent has this controversy been the fruit of the Spirit, and to what extent has it been a work of the flesh?

2. The Machen movement was born in the controversy over liberal theology. I have no doubt that Machen and his colleagues were right to reject this theology and to fight it. But it is arguable that once the Machenites found themselves in a “true Presbyterian church” they were unable to moderate their martial impulses. Being in a church without liberals to fight, they turned on one another.

3. One slogan of the Machen movement was “truth before friendship.” We should laud their intention to act according to principle without compromise. But the biblical balance is “speaking the truth in love” (Eph. 4:15). We must not speak the truth without thinking of the effect of our formulations on our fellow Christians, even our opponents. That balance was not characteristic of the Machen movement. [66]

4. Reformed people need to do much more thinking about what constitutes a test of orthodoxy. Is it really plausible to say that, say, Gordon Clark’s view of incomprehensibility was unorthodox, when neither Clark’s nor Van Til’s positions are clearly set forth in the Reformed confessions? But again and again through the history described above, writers have read one another out of the Reformed movement (and even out of Christianity) on such dubious bases. The assumption seems to be that any difference of opinion amounts to a test of fellowship, that any truth I possess gives me the right to disrupt the peace of the church until everybody comes to agree with me. But surely there are some disagreements that are not tests of orthodoxy, some differences that should be tolerated within the church. Examples include the disagreements over days and the eating of meat described by Paul in Rom. 14, and the disagreements about idol food which he discusses in 1 Cor. 8-10. In those passages, there is no suggestion that people holding the wrong view should be put out of the church. Rather, Paul condemns the party spirit and calls the disagreeing parties to live together as Christian brothers and sisters. In my judgment, the Machen movement thought little about the difference between tolerable and intolerable disagreements in the church.

5. Scripture often condemns a “contentious” spirit (Prov. 13:10, 18:6, 26:21, Hab. 1:3, 1 Cor. 1:11, 11:16, Tit. 3:9) and commends “gentleness” (2 Cor. 10:1, Gal. 5:22, 1 Thess. 2:7, 2 Tim. 2:24, Tit. 3:2, Jas. 3:17). The Reformed community should give much more attention to these biblical themes.

6. With many, though not all, of the issues described above it is possible to see the positions as complementary rather than as contradictory. I believe that is true of the Van Til/Clark controversy, the counseling controversy, the Sonship controversy and some others. As I said earlier, I find these positions more persuasive in what they affirm than in what they deny.

7. With other issues, there are genuine contradictions between the positions of the parties. But even in those cases, I think that often these parties are trying to express complementary biblical truths. Theonomy, for example, emphasizes the continuity between Old and New Testaments, anti-theonomy the discontinuity. A more adequate account will seek to do justice to both.

8. Overall, the quality of thought displayed in these polemics has not been a credit to the Reformed tradition. Writers have gone to great lengths to read their opponents’ words and motivations in the worst possible sense (often worse than possible) and to present their own ideas as virtually perfect: rightly motivated and leaving no room for doubt. Such presentations are scarcely credible to anybody who looks at the debates with minimal objectivity.

9. The various anniversary celebrations and official histories in the different Reformed denominational bodies have been largely self-congratulatory. [67] In Reformed circles, we often say that there is no perfect church, that churches as well as individuals are guilty of sin and liable to error. But Reformed writers and teachers seem to find it almost impossible to specify particular sins, even weaknesses, in their own traditions or denominations, particularly in their own partisan groups. A spirit of genuine self-criticism (prelude to a spirit of repentance) is an urgent need.

10. Nevertheless it is important to remember that there are some theological issues that really are matters of life and death for the church. In the PCUSA as of the time of this writing, there are controversies over whether church officers should be expected to observe biblical standards of sexual fidelity and chastity, over the ordination of homosexuals, and over whether Jesus is the only Lord and Savior. The outrageous fact that such issues can actually be debated within the church places other controversies into perspective. The Confessing Church Movement within the PCUSA is fighting a courageous battle, and they deserve the prayers and encouragement of all Reformed believers.

11. My assignment was to write on Reformed theology. But I should note that the remedy for the divisions above is not merely better theological formulations. The almost exclusive focus on doctrinal issues in many Reformed circles is itself part of the problem. As Tim Keller advises, Reformed Christianity needs a vision that encompasses not only doctrinal statements, but also our piety, evangelistic outreach, and missions of mercy. [68]

An Unrealistic Dream

1. That Reformed thinkers continue to have bright, fresh ideas, but that they present these ideas with humility and treat with grace and patience those who are not immediately convinced.

2. That Reformed thinkers with bright ideas discourage the rapid formation of parties to contend for those ideas.

3. That those initially opposed to those bright ideas allow some time for gentle, thoughtful discussion before declaring the bright ideas to be heresy.

4. That these opponents also discourage the rapid formation of partisan groups.

5. That those contending for various doctrinal positions accept the burden of proof, willing to bear the difficulty of serious biblical exegesis.

6. That we try much harder to guard our tongues (Jas. 3:1-12), saving the strongest language of condemnation (e.g., “denying the gospel”) for those who have been declared heretics by the judicial processes of the church.

7. That Reformed churches, ministries, and institutions be open to a wider range of opinions than they are now—within limits, of course.

8. That we honor one another as much for character and witness as we do for agreement with our theological positions.

9. That occasionally we smile and jest about our relatively minor differences, while praying, worshiping, and working together in the love of Christ. [69]
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  #65  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:56 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

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Originally Posted by TRFrance View Post
I liken it to the process of childbirth.
...
Someone else once likened the AS and resulting action to a bowel movement.
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  #66  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:56 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

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Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
Ok, if you say so. My point in all of this is that getting rid of the Ultracons is not going to help the UPC unless there is a fundamental change. I see TV being the best way to bring about that change.
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Originally Posted by deltaguitar View Post
Right. Then why does everyone want to see them go.
Keep in mind, the UPC is not driving the UC's out. They are the ones choosing to drive themselves out. As far as I'm concerned, if they want to go, let them go. As the scripture says, "how can two walk together except they be in agreement?"

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Originally Posted by scotty View Post
Why are non UPC trying to help UPC.?

Why do non UPC think they know what is best for UPC?
Is that not the very spiritual arrogance the same accuses of UPC?
Hmmm. Food for thought
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  #67  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:57 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

Ok...I have a question.....no disrespect...but why would anybody in their right mind give a flip what the presbyterians do or think or whatever......
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  #68  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:57 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

Why care about Presby's? Because people are people and the more things change the more they stay the same.
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  #69  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:58 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

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Originally Posted by A_PoMo View Post
The more things change the more they stay the same.
No doubt
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  #70  
Old 02-28-2008, 05:59 PM
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Re: The loss of a General Board Member

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Originally Posted by NLYP View Post
Ok...I have a question.....no disrespect...but why would anybody in their right mind give a flip what the presbyterians do or think or whatever......
Simply because human nature is the same no matter what label you give yourself.......
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