Random Questions Thread

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If you heard a teaching that any of the following could be evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost, what would you think, how would you respond

Speaking in Tongues

1. Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2. Acts 10:44-47 - While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
3. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Prophecy

1. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Spiritual Gifts

1. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal... For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

So, for example, if God used someone to perform a notable miracle, but they had never spoken in tongues.

Acts 19 they spoke with tongues, so it can't be used to say tongues is not the initial evidence.

Acts 10 they spoke in tongues and magnified God. Seems essentially the same thing in Acts 19, as their Spirit inspired praising of God could certainly be called prophesying.

1 Corinthian 12-14 is in the context of people who already have the Spirit and are being used in different ways in the meeting. Paul isn't talking about initial evidence here.

So what is left? It is true God can even make a donkey prophesy in a human language, but I cannot but see the normative rule is tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Spirit, just going by what Scripture says.

Joel said people would do various things as a result of the Spirit being poured out, but one thing he said they ALL would do is "prophesy", which according to Peter meant speaking with other tongues. So I have to stick with that.

[shag]

Dispensationalists seem to teach that because the Jews rejected Christ, THEREFORE, he came to the gentiles by way of a “second or “remaining” option”. IOW, BECAUSE they rejected him, is the only reason we could receive him. Is this accurate?

But the truth is, he came knowing that some of the Jews would reject the gospel(while some would not reject it) and he had planned all along to also come to the gentiles. (Correct?)

(The tree grafting was on purpose, not a backup plan, might be another way to say it)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shag

Dispensationalists seem to teach that because the Jews rejected Christ, THEREFORE, he came to the gentiles by way of a “second or “remaining” option”. IOW, BECAUSE they rejected him, is the only reason we could receive him. Is this accurate?

But the truth is, he came knowing that some of the Jews would reject the gospel(while some would not reject it) and he had planned all along to also come to the gentiles. (Correct?)

(The tree grafting was on purpose, not a backup plan, might be another way to say it)

Classic Dispensationalism (although rare these days) doesn't see a remnant of Jews. Therefore focus is taking off Biblically historic understanding of Judea, the regathering back to Israel/Jerusalem. While they acknowledge Jesus coming to His own, and His own receiving Him not. They focus on a physical return (not the rapture) for Jesus to be accepted by every single modern Jew on the planet. The Dispensationalist calls "the time of the Gentiles" Luke 21:24. They obviously interpret "sword" as AK 47, but I digress. The time of the Gentiles to Dispensationalists run from Babylonian captivity 586 B.C. to some undisclosed point in time when Christ physically returns. Again. This is Classical Dispensationalism. Yet, all forms of Dispensationalism has to keep adjusting its instruments in order to land their space ship. Because if you look back at all forms of futurism, as time marches on, the teaching must be adjusted for the delay. hence we have been told that the time of the Gentiles have been stopped numerous times in modern history. Brandon Biggs (new age soothsayer) has claimed the time of the Gentiles will be ending, shortly. This takes away the return of Christ as the catalyst for modern Jewish conversions all over the planet. The Holy Ghost is supposed to leave the Gentiles and go to the modern Jews. This is mostly taught prior to any rapture, or physical return of Christ. But, as I said, futurism tends to get morphed as time marches on. I do believe we still will have some changes in the near future for Dispensationalism.

[Amanah]

- God's original covenant was with the entire nation of Israel (comprising the houses of Judah and Israel), but due to their disobedience and idolatry, God "divorced" the house of Israel (Jeremiah 3:8) and exiled them among the nations.
- The house of Judah (Jews) remained in the land, but also faced exile and dispersion.
- Through the prophets, God promised a new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 36:26-27) that would reunite and restore both houses.
- In the New Testament, Jesus' teachings and the apostles' writings reveal that Gentiles are grafted into this new covenant through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:11-24, Galatians 3:8, Ephesians 2:11-22).
- This new covenant extends to all nations, fulfilling God's original plan to bless all nations through Abraham's descendants (Genesis 12:3, 18:18, 22:18).
- The "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) includes the dispersed houses of Judah and Israel who lost their identity and are now gentiles.

In summary, God's plan was always to save and bless all nations, but due to Israel's disobedience, a new covenant was necessary to restore and expand God's people. Through Jesus, Gentiles are now grafted into this new covenant, becoming the Israel of God.

Israel has never been excluded from the Covenant.
And God's intention has always been to include all.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

If you heard a teaching that any of the following could be evidence that someone has received the Holy Ghost, what would you think, how would you respond

Speaking in Tongues

1. Acts 2:4 - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2. Acts 10:44-47 - While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word... For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
3. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Prophecy

1. Acts 19:6 - And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Spiritual Gifts

1. 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 - But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal... For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

So, for example, if God used someone to perform a notable miracle, but they had never spoken in tongues.

Sister Amanah,

I think this is an excellent subject to study and possibly debate. I sometimes wonder if this doctrine has been properly vetted. Regardless of whether you believe the initial evidence doctrine to be true or not, it is helpful to vet the doctrine from a scriptural standpoint.

I think it is commonly accepted that tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost (at least in oneness Pentecostal churches). However I can’t think of any scripture that says directly that it actually IS the initial evidence. There is anecdotal evidence, or perhaps even empirical evidence.

In my opinion, to properly vet the doctrine, we should provide direct, literal, scriptural evidence that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

If that is not possible, (I don’t believe it is) we should systematically move on to other evidence that is not as direct. The absence of literal evidence doesn’t prove that the doctrine would be false, in my opinion, it would be the strongest evidence, but possibly not the ONLY evidence.

So to get started. Can anyone quote scripture that directly and literally says that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost?

[Amanah]

Bro TM, let me start a new thread for this topic. Give me a minute.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro TM, let me start a new thread for this topic. Give me a minute.

Thank you. I think that’s a great idea.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

The time of the Gentiles to Dispensationalists run from Babylonian captivity 586 B.C. to some undisclosed point in time when Christ physically returns.

The Watchtower used to teach this as the reason the millennium would begin in 1933 (2520 years after 586 BC = 1933). The various dates associated with the destruction of the Temple, the rebuilding of the Temple, the return from Babylon, etc is also where they were getting 1914, 1925, 1933, and some of their other dates, all associated with the 2520 year cycles they were using.

[shag]

Doesn’t this verse annul the idea of any jews that still reject Jesus as messiah, from inheriting Gods promise of land per Ez. 37-38, as taught by dispensationlists?
(Taught as now and in the very near future, regathering to their “deed and titled homeland”)

Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.

Completely cut off to inherit any Land inheritance that might have been just for them, (as perceived by disp.)

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by shag

Doesn’t this verse annul the idea of any jews that still reject Jesus as messiah, from inheriting Gods promise of land per Ez. 37-38, as taught by dispensationlists?
(Taught as now and in the very near future, regathering to their “deed and titled homeland”)

Acts 3:23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.

Completely cut off to inherit any Land inheritance that might have been just for them, (as perceived by disp.)

Please rephrase your question more clearly. Not sure what you are asking.