"Beards are sin!" False doctrine?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I totally agree with a pastor doing whatever he and his church family are cool with. You seem to not get this? But the saints in the church want it that way, these people aren't writing letters to Lois' website. Complaining that their pastor sleeps in a coffin during the day. That he has them locked in an attic feeding them cookies laced with arsenic. No, these people LOVE what is going on, and they love the pastor. Even the converts are making decisions when they come and like what they see. No buyers regret!!! They bought the car, and are going to drive it until the wheels fall off. I might not agree, I might not believe what they teach. But that isn't the bed I will lay my head. But if I take my wife, and children there then I need to accept my life choice. Can I discuss my beliefs? No problem, that is what an office or any place where it is I and the elders can speak privately. You see, because now they can choose whether I should stay or move it on down the line. If they say adios, then I already knew what they believed, and what I believed. Is there hard feelings that I should take to a forum? All so I can go wee wee wee all the way home? No, because that would already solidify that when I was told that my carriage would turn into a pumpkin, I through my own self delusion believed that pumpkins where really the same as horse drawn carriages. Which they are not.

I understand what you're saying. No one is a captive and it is the way they want it. You're right.

I guess what I'm getting at is that such a standard isn't biblical. And those of us outside of such churches should not back down from denouncing such unbiblical teachings in those churches... even if the entire congregation in any one of those churches agrees with it. A congregation in agreement with a tradition of man doesn't make the teaching a Bible truth.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I understand what you're saying. No one is a captive and it is the way they want it. You're right.

I guess what I'm getting at is that such a standard isn't biblical. And those of us outside of such churches should not back down from denouncing such unbiblical teachings in those churches... even if the entire congregation in any one of those churches agrees with it. A congregation in agreement with a tradition of man doesn't make the teaching a Bible truth.

Ok, but look at it this way. You and Mike say that the shaved say you aint saved. But, when I sign off from the forum, to ask my pastors and elders, they say no. Yet, give me their cultural or platform reasons. After I hear those reasons I then shut the both of you off. Hey, we take that risk when we are coming against anything. It is like all pastors who take tithes are making fat money. But then when we go to our church family, and watch our pastor pushing his truck home, we get a different picture. Or the starving young couple who are sucking on their wallets trying to dig out a home missions work. They sure aren't Creflo Dollaring it to sucess.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I understand what you're saying. No one is a captive and it is the way they want it. You're right.

I guess what I'm getting at is that such a standard isn't biblical. And those of us outside of such churches should not back down from denouncing such unbiblical teachings in those churches... even if the entire congregation in any one of those churches agrees with it. A congregation in agreement with a tradition of man doesn't make the teaching a Bible truth.

Is this where you and the libs storm the church?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ok, but look at it this way. You and Mike say that the shaved say you aint saved. But, when I sign off from the forum, to ask my pastors and elders, they say no. Yet, give me their cultural or platform reasons. After I hear those reasons I then shut the both of you off.

If you'd do that knowing that those who informed you have no biblical foundation for their case, you've compromised the truth in favor of the praise of men.

Hey, we take that risk when we are coming against anything.

I agree.

It is like all pastors who take tithes are making fat money. But then when we go to our church family, and watch our pastor pushing his truck home, we get a different picture. Or the starving young couple who are sucking on their wallets trying to dig out a home missions work. They sure aren't Creflo Dollaring it to sucess.

In most cases, no, they aren't. I agree.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by houston

Is this where you and the libs storm the church?

No. I'd just like to see a vehement condemnation over such a standard from those who don't hold such a standard.

We are supposed to be a Bible based people... not a tradition of man based people.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

NOW....we are final going to get the answer we have been seeking this entire thread. NOW please explain the reason THE ELDERS BANNED BEARDS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

It doesn't matter why they did it, it is not biblical therefore their reasoning is irrelevant.

[votivesoul]

I don't really get here on a daily basis anymore, so I can't keep up with the conversation. Almost thirty pages has gone by since I last contributed. I've caught up, however, and feel led to say this:

The believers in Corinth were a mess. Heresy, schism-induced factions, pride, fornication, abuse of the charismata, corruption of the Lord's Supper, and etc., and yet Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 1:1-2,

1. Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's...

Despite the mess of problems in Corinth, Paul still considered them God's church.

Later, in Revelation, we know the situation in Laodicea was also a mess, just as bad if not worse, than in Corinth. But our Lord said this:

Revelation 3:14,

14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God...

Jesus called these jokers a church, so guess what? They weren't "jokers" to Jesus. They were His bought with a price bride, even as messed up as they were. Same with the other churches in Revelation 2-3, with their major issues, like, for example, in Thyatira, where Jezebel seduced Christ's servants, or Pergamos and their doctrine of Balaam and of the Nicolaitans, or perhaps worst of all, Ephesus leaving their first love.

Jesus calls each and every one of these assemblies a church. They every one of them had worse problems than a beard prohibition. The church in Jerusalem had to decide on circumcision for the Gentiles, a decision that affected the entire religion of Christianity forever. These are much weightier issues.

Still, they're churches, whether false in doctrines, puffed up in pride, divided by heresy, caught up in idolatry, or committing fornication. Any of us who have been bought with the same price Jesus paid for these, we, too, are of that same Body, which is the church. These failing and flailing assemblies were made up of our brothers and sisters, and they go a long way to show us how, today, local assemblies the world over are just as prone to the same problems.

But that doesn't strip them of their right to be called a church.

Nor does it make any of the mess right, or okay. In fact, just as our Lord does, or as Paul did, we, too, should denounce anything that's wrong or sinful, in the church.

But only on two conditions:

1.) We haven't abandoned Christ's church, that is, we ought not to be making accusations from afar with no real desire to remain in the Body of Christ so as to change it from within, instead of just tearing it down from the outside

2.) We have thoroughly purged our eyes of every beam of wood that might otherwise make us hypocrites when we decide to lay charges against the Body of Christ.

Two kinds of people lift up their voices to speak against the Body of Christ:

Those who hate Christ's church and those who love Christ's church.

Be sure that whatever you say against the Body to try and bring about change is only ever done out of love. You have to love Christ's Church even as Christ loves you, and It. If you are speaking from any less of a place, you and Jesus are at odds, and a beard prohibition is the least of your concerns.

But if you truly, deeply love Christ's people, those He has called and chosen, and you long for their perfection, and you fast and pray and abide in the secret place of the Most High and make intercession for the Body day and night, and you suffer long and bind the wounded, and give yourself no rest, until the spotted, wrinkled, blemished parts of the church become glorious, and you can stand in full confidence knowing you have espoused a holy bride unto the Lord, then yes, you may speak, and for His part, Jesus will love you for it, and He will honor your words, and give Himself the glory for how you have loved and helped and blessed His people, blessed, and not cursed, all those who are His and love Him at His coming.

Less than this, you stand in doubt, even if you are standing on the side of right when it comes to the "beard prohibition" issue.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I don't really get here on a daily basis anymore, so I can't keep up with the conversation. Almost thirty pages has gone by since I last contributed. I've caught up, however, and feel led to say this:

The believers in Corinth were a mess. Heresy, schism-induced factions, pride, fornication, abuse of the charismata, corruption of the Lord's Supper, and etc., and yet Paul wrote:

1 Corinthians 1:1-2,

1. Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's...

Despite the mess of problems in Corinth, Paul still considered them God's church.

Later, in Revelation, we know the situation in Laodicea was also a mess, just as bad if not worse, than in Corinth. But our Lord said this:

Revelation 3:14,

14. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God...

Jesus called these jokers a church, so guess what? They weren't "jokers" to Jesus. They were His bought with a price bride, even as messed up as they were. Same with the other churches in Revelation 2-3, with their major issues, like, for example, in Thyatira, where Jezebel seduced Christ's servants, or Pergamos and their doctrine of Balaam and of the Nicolaitans, or perhaps worst of all, Ephesus leaving their first love.

Jesus calls each and every one of these assemblies a church. They every one of them had worse problems than a beard prohibition. The church in Jerusalem had to decide on circumcision for the Gentiles, a decision that affected the entire religion of Christianity forever. These are much weightier issues.

Still, they're churches, whether false in doctrines, puffed up in pride, divided by heresy, caught up in idolatry, or committing fornication. Any of us who have been bought with the same price Jesus paid for these, we, too, are of that same Body, which is the church. These failing and flailing assemblies were made up of our brothers and sisters, and they go a long way to show us how, today, local assemblies the world over are just as prone to the same problems.

But that doesn't strip them of their right to be called a church.

Nor does it make any of the mess right, or okay. In fact, just as our Lord does, or as Paul did, we, too, should denounce anything that's wrong or sinful, in the church.

But only on two conditions:

1.) We haven't abandoned Christ's church, that is, we ought not to be making accusations from afar with no real desire to remain in the Body of Christ so as to change it from within, instead of just tearing it down from the outside

2.) We have thoroughly purged our eyes of every beam of wood that might otherwise make us hypocrites when we decide to lay charges against the Body of Christ.

Two kinds of people lift up their voices to speak against the Body of Christ:

Those who hate Christ's church and those who love Christ's church.

Be sure that whatever you say against the Body to try and bring about change is only ever done out of love. You have to love Christ's Church even as Christ loves you, and It. If you are speaking from any less of a place, you and Jesus are at odds, and a beard prohibition is the least of your concerns.

But if you truly, deeply love Christ's people, those He has called and chosen, and you long for their perfection, and you fast and pray and abide in the secret place of the Most High and make intercession for the Body day and night, and you suffer long and bind the wounded, and give yourself no rest, until the spotted, wrinkled, blemished parts of the church become glorious, and you can stand in full confidence knowing you have espoused a holy bride unto the Lord, then yes, you may speak, and for His part, Jesus will love you for it, and He will honor your words, and give Himself the glory for how you have loved and helped and blessed His people, blessed, and not cursed, all those who are His and love Him at His coming.

Less than this, you stand in doubt, even if you are standing on the side of right when it comes to the "beard prohibition" issue.

Excellent post.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No, because they have a standard of look, and they aren't teaching the beard is sinful. Why would you want to go to a church that makes you a second class citizen? Chris, you want me to answer that?

Ok with this we have the answer why the shave only groups preach against men having beards. They make brothers in Christ to feel ashamed and shut their doors to people who might be seeking more truth.

And Dom has explained their reasoning for it.

THEY HAVE A STANDARD OF "LOOK".

They dont like their looks! Their "look" is not a sin, nonetheless they dont like the way they "look".

If Jesus were to come to their Church they would not like his looks. Neither his Apostles.

People can be pure on the inside but a beard makes them "look" unrespectable at the least and impure at the worse.

Outsiders looking in can understand this and has probably shut many of them out from the Church.

Now that their reasoning is known and made public not much more can be said (by me) in this thread.

[Aquila]

I so wish there was an Apostolic house church network near me. After attending house churches, the thought of returning to a traditional church feels so institutional. As I shop around and look at websites and various churches, I feel like I'm a home school student returning to the public school system. It feels artificial, contrived, limiting, like a big production, an enterprise, like it should come in a box, like your expected to check your brain at the door, like you're going to be controlled simply for control's sake, like I'm trying to find a Sith Lord I can pledge loyalty to. lol

It's the strangest feeling! LOL