More on Skirts

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So don't teach men to be men who ought to take charge of the issue?

I'm not understanding, no saved woman would leave her husband because he acts like a man.

Are you married Esaias? I'm assuming you're not.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So don't teach men to be men who ought to take charge of the issue?

I'm not understanding, no saved woman would leave her husband because he acts like a man.

Saved people can commit sin and can error. Saved men have committed adultery. Saved women have beaten their kids. Of course, those who do need to get their hearts right. If they continue in such sin, they can face God's corrective judgments, or God might allow them to cross that fine line no man can see wherein they are indeed cut off from eternal life.

Remember, we don't own our wives. They aren't property. They have feelings, opinions, interpretations, understandings, hopes, dreams, fears, and aspects of their person that are entirely their own. A good Christian woman will seek to be loving and submitted, but for many if not most, it can be a struggle.

I've never known a husband who is right 100% of the time, nor a woman submitted 100% of the time.

And, I'll be honest, that one week a month, their whole personality can change. Hormones can be wonderful things...are they can be pure Hades. Lol


Love your wife as Christ loves the church, cherish, love, and nurture her as though she is your own flesh. As Christ gave Himself for us, give yourself for your bride. Live as an example, not a dictator. Be as gracious and merciful to her as Christ is to you.

If a woman isn't submitted, she is either strong willed...or you haven't been the example she needs. No woman will submit to a man that she can't trust or who is hard, or, who is merciless, or who never submits Himself, or who never apologizes, or who has acted in a manner that her image of him is unfavorable. In most cases I've seen, the moment the man discovers what servant leadership truly is...she'll come around.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Are you married Esaias? I'm assuming you're not.

I've been married 24 years to the same woman, the one and only woman I've ever been involved with in any serious way, we have 7 kids, every single one has been or is being homeschooled. Don't you read my posts? lol

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Saved people can commit sin and can error. Saved men have committed adultery. Saved women have beaten their kids. Of course, those who do need to get their hearts right. If they continue in such sin, they can face God's corrective judgments, or God might allow them to cross that fine line no man can see wherein they are indeed cut off from eternal life.

Remember, we don't own our wives. They aren't property. They have feelings, opinions, interpretations, understandings, hopes, dreams, fears, and aspects of their person that are entirely their own. A good Christian woman will seek to be loving and submitted, but for many if not most, it can be a struggle.

I've never known a husband who is right 100% of the time, nor a woman submitted 100% of the time.

And, I'll be honest, that one week a month, their whole personality can change. Hormones can be wonderful things...are they can be pure Hades. Lol


Love your wife as Christ loves the church, cherish, love, and nurture her as though she is your own flesh. As Christ gave Himself for us, give yourself for your bride. Live as an example, not a dictator. Be as gracious and merciful to her as Christ is to you.

If a woman isn't submitted, she is either strong willed...or you haven't been the example she needs. No woman will submit to a man that she can't trust or who is hard, or, who is merciless, or who never submits Himself, or who never apologizes, or who has acted in a manner that her image of him is unfavorable. In most cases I've seen, the moment the man discovers what servant leadership truly is...she'll come around.

Tell us your marital status and history, so we can know if you have any idea what you are talking about.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So don't teach men to be men who ought to take charge of the issue?

I'm not understanding, no saved woman would leave her husband because he acts like a man.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that we have deeper problems than just the skirts in our christian culture and that is that men are often dominated by their wives. Men aren't being the leaders of their homes. We have a culture that demonizes men as being chauvinistic pigs for being authoritative in their homes. I agree with you men should just enforce rules of dress in their families.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I've been married 24 years to the same woman, the one and only woman I've ever been involved with in any serious way, we have 7 kids, every single one has been or is being homeschooled. Don't you read my posts? lol

Honestly, I can't remember who is who half the time. Lol

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I think you are misunderstanding me. I am saying that we have deeper problems than just the skirts in our christian culture and that is that men are often dominated by their wives. Men aren't being the leaders of their homes. We have a culture that demonizes men as being chauvinistic pigs for being authoritative in their homes. I agree with you men should just enforce rules of dress in their families.

Okay, got it. And yes, the issue is bigger than just clothing - that's just a symptom.

Now, the culture of course demonizes men and masculinity. But which has the greater influence on men - secular culture? Or the church? If the church promoted biblical manhood, fatherhood, etc, then the influence of the secular culture would be nonexistent for the most part. You'd have all the sissy boys and macho girls of the world on one hand, and then you'd have real men and real women of the church of God on the other hand. the secular world would crumble within a few generations into a footnote of history.

So the problem is churches aren't teaching and modeling genuine Biblical manhood.

Either that, or too many men are watching Hollywood's garbage...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Tell us your marital status and history, so we can know if you have any idea what you are talking about.

I'm divorced and remarried. I learned the hard way when it comes to a woman. I remember demanding she changed clothes because they weren't too my standard, I marched her back into the house and made her change. One day she was crying before church because she didn't believe in head coverings. I demanded she wear it. She wanted to go to a family reunion, I told her that we weren't going because they weren't saved. That was the last chance she had to see her dad before he died.

I was a real jerk.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Okay, got it. And yes, the issue is bigger than just clothing - that's just a symptom.

Now, the culture of course demonizes men and masculinity. But which has the greater influence on men - secular culture? Or the church? If the church promoted biblical manhood, fatherhood, etc, then the influence of the secular culture would be nonexistent for the most part. You'd have all the sissy boys and macho girls of the world on one hand, and then you'd have real men and real women of the church of God on the other hand. the secular world would crumble within a few generations into a footnote of history.

So the problem is churches aren't teaching and modeling genuine Biblical manhood.

Either that, or too many men are watching Hollywood's garbage...

I can agree with the above. We had started a men's group to address men's issues and to build biblical manhood. Sons were welcome. The pastor seemed all for it. We had scheduled one meeting a week and one outing (camping, fishing, hiking, and the like) every quarter. The pastor shut it down within 6 months because he felt a "spirit of rebellion" in the leadership. He didn't like anything he wasn't in charge of personally. So many ideas, programs, efforts were shot down very quickly. He never said no. But he'd kill it before it got off the ground. I planned an outreach in downtown Dayton, Ohio, at the courthouse square. It was going to be a gospel concert and outreach. The choir was fired up. My wife had them practicing a list of songs, I had two special speakers from the church, and the pastor was to address the people. We had a trough for baptisms donated, and were to have tables set up for payer requests and tracts. He told me to run with it. And said the church would reimburse me any expense. So, I got the permit and reserved the square, I paid too rent all needed sound equipment, I purchased tracts and literature. It was even advertised on the radio (I pulled a favor from a friend). The pastor cancelled the night before. He also never reimbursed me for expenses involved with setting it up.

My point? Some churches have inactive disinterested men because all they want us to do is show up, pay tithes, and be quite. It's easy to lose your passion in a church like that.

[Aquila]

Also he criticized the men's group because in one meeting the Spirit moved and it got real. Men were openly confessing sin and struggles with sobbing tears. We prayed for one another and ministered to the needs brought before us. He had no idea of some of the sins and struggles we were having. When it became clear that we weren't perfect he lost his mind. He interrupted the move, rebuked the men confessing, and said we will never be holy if we don't act holy and uphold the image of being holy. The men that didn't confess anything gave strong, Amens. Soon, anyone who disclosed their struggles were sat down. We were told we had to be perfect as He is perfect, no imperfection was to be tolerated. We lost two families over that one. And the men who came alive in that meeting felt blasted for being real. It was like the devil was using men's confessions to destroy them as others jockeyed for their positions. It was the one time we felt real, honest, transparent, willing to address our faults and hidden sin, and it was like the pastor felt it insulted his idea that we were perfect. It was really sad.

We learned to keep our imperfections and struggles a secret. Because if you got real and exposed any hidden sin, struggle, or imperfection, you were toast. The hint of imperfection would be used to destroy you. But we were encouraged to act perfect in all circumstances. In essence, we were taught to be hypocrites.

I know all churches aren't like this. I've been to several that aren't. But the sense of hiding imperfection was present to a lesser degree. I've experienced that the higher the standards, the less authentic the people tend to be.