The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Barb

Well, ya know, I was told, "Those men are dead and gone now!!" It's as if everything they taught and all that they meant in days gone by is without merit...shot down the tubes because "they were soft on the message" or "never believed the message."

And then I hear, "Well, they were coming out of denomintional churches and were not willing or unable to refute their own experiences there." In other words, our Pentecostal pioneers, not wanting to say they were never saved before, made excuses for themselves.

I have to tell you, it is disheartening...very troubling to know that the church history I thought I knew, I did not. It is equally troubling to read that the men I have held in such high regard spoken of with such disdain...just a shrug of the shoulders and a "they never believed it" and then go about our business?!

I don't get this...not at all!!

What's rich is that these men were shot down with the same vitriole back then .... and now ... ironically.... the new hardliners will dare say we're not really like the old PCI greats .... you can't win for losing ....

Originally Posted by Brett Prince

Theo, I hate to say it, but you can't prove that. You can add to to this Scripture and make it say that, but you can't take it as it is and say it says tongues, or YOU speaking in tongues. It says that all who are born of the Spirit WILL HEAR HIS VOICE. That is it.

Is it not the Spirit that speaks through us as we speak in tongues? (See Acts 2:4) Is Jesus not that Spirit? Does He not, at that time, have control of the most unruly member of our body that no man can tame?

I'm not adding to that scripture, brother, but merely pointing out what is taking place during Spiritual Baptism as Jesus is so describing in simple Greek terms.

I'm saying that Jesus is clearly expounding for Nicodemus in John 3:8, as well as for all that read His Word, what He means by what will accompany the Spiritual Birth of everyone. Read it carefully, that "voice" that you hear, but canst not tell whence it cometh, nor where it goeth.

John 3:8
The wind(Spirit) bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound(voice) thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


Examine the word for "whence"

Pothen 1.of place: from where, from what condition

2.of origin or source: from what author or giver

3.of cause: how is that?, how can that be?

Interesting?

It seems to me that this "voice" is characterized by Jesus to apparently be, at least in the eyes and ears of the beholder/receiver, coming from an uncertain origin, source, author or giver in an uncertain fashion. Neither can one tell where it is going next either. Hmmm.


Sounds like that voice that accompanies everyone Born of the Spirit is in an unknown tongue to me.

How many testimonies have a similar description of the receiving of the Holy Ghost?




Let's examine the Greek word that Jesus chose that was interpreted 'sound' here in John 3:8.

The Greek word is Phone with the following meanings:


1. a sound,

a. a tone of inanimate things, as musical instruments


2.a voice

a. of the sound of uttered words


3. speech

a. of a language, tongue

It occurs 141 times in the KJV New Testament and is translated as follows

be noised abroad + (1096), 1; noise, 1; sound, 8; voice, 131;

Paul used it in reference to various unknown tongues of men, to illustrate the effects of the unknown tongues of angels on the speaker and the hearer.

Consider 1 Cor 14:10-11

14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

Many of us recognize that this is smack dab in the middle of Paul's passage on the purpose, as well as the proper and improper use of unknown tongues.



How does Jesus seal up the teaching on Spiritual Birth and speaking in unknown tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance?

He teaches that this that He has just characterized will be the case with every one that is Born of the Spirit. Every one.

Doubtful that I can stress that enough here. What is the constant with Spiritual Baptism for every one? The sound as of a rushing mighty wind? Cloven tongues? Some other voice of His that we hear?

No. Every one is Born again of the Spirit as they speak in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance.

It says that all who are born of the Spirit WILL HEAR HIS VOICE. That is it.

Exactly, we hear His voice with the tongue that He chooses through us as our spirit prayeth, yet our understanding is without fruit though we be edified ourselves!


And this is what we see and hear fulfilled in Acts and beyond. Should it be any surprise that what we see Jesus teach about, as to what would take place with everyone being born of the Spirit, and what we see and hear taking place during the fulfillment of the Promise should be exactly the same thing, every time, with everyone? No, it really shouldn't.

Jesus has this thing about His Word and fulfillment. Like in John 3:8. Have I mentioned John 3:8? Did I mention that Jesus is teaching that what is being described here is how it will be with everyone that is born of the Spirit?

John 3:8 - The wind(Spirit) bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound
(voice) thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:

so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I can only hope that I've made myself clear here, at least to you....at least to those that take the matter seriously


God Bless, Theo.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Barb

Well, ya know, I was told, "Those men are dead and gone now!!" It's as if everything they taught and all that they meant in days gone by is without merit...shot down the tubes because "they were soft on the message" or "never believed the message."

And then I hear, "Well, they were coming out of denomintional churches and were not willing or unable to refute their own experiences there." In other words, our Pentecostal pioneers, not wanting to say they were never saved before, made excuses for themselves.

I have to tell you, it is disheartening...very troubling to know that the church history I thought I knew, I did not. It is equally troubling to read that the men I have held in such high regard spoken of with such disdain...just a shrug of the shoulders and a "they never believed it" and then go about our business?!

I don't get this...not at all!!

There have been many complaints about re-writing and/or denying some of our apostolic history. Don't know why anyone would want to do this really. What are they afraid of? (if indeed fear is a factor here).

[tv1a]

I'm not a pci'er but I'm disappointed with the first post of this thread... How can CS make a statement like that when there is a plethora of documented evidence that suggests otherwise?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

What's rich is that these men were shot down with the same vitriole back then .... and now ... ironically.... the new hardliners will dare say we're not really like the old PCI greats .... you can't win for losing ....

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Felicity

There have been many complaints about re-writing and/or denying some of our apostolic history. Don't know why anyone would want to do this really. What are they afraid of? (if indeed fear is a factor here).

afraid of being wrong is the common denominator .... in many aspects and issues.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

They know John 3 but dont go beyond Acts .... 1 John 5:

1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.
2
In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments.
3
For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,
4
for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith.
5
Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

........

[OneAccord]

I beg to differ, Brother. This HAS happened before. A young brother repented in our church and aked to be baptized that night. The pastor put it off until the next Sunday. That Friday night before being baptized, he was killed in a car accident. So, even though he fully intended on being baptized, he is lost? What about the pastor... should he be lost as well, for not baptizing the man when he was ready? I respectfully disagree with your answers but I do appreciate that you have the integrity to answer.

Originally Posted by Brother Price

Answer: Yes, but this has never happened and more than likely never will 1Peter 3:21 says that in like manner, baptism does now also save us. Mark 16:16 says the he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. So, that person is lost.



Yes, because the sign given through the Acts of the Apostles that someone has received the Holy Ghost is that they speak with tongues. Until she speaks with tongues, just as they did at Pentecost, she is lost.



Answer: No. He has obeyed the Gospel. Misunderstanding the Gospel does not negate his faith that his sins have been washed away. His obedience to the Gospel is sufficient. Now, he can be discipled about how repentance does not save, but that baptism is where sins are remitted.

OK, I answered truthfully.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I can only hope that I've made myself clear here, at least to you....at least to those that take the matter seriously


God Bless, Theo.

I think you've made yourself clear. That isn't the issue.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and exegesis with us. Can you think of another scripture/s that would affirm your understanding of John 3:8 and what it means and signifies?

[SDG]

Ferd did you really read verse 2???? Please analyze it ....And who has advocated non-obedience .????.. it's amazing ...

[Charlie Brown]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

They know John 3 but dont go beyond Acts .... 1 John 5:

1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him.
2
In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments.
3
For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,
4
for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith.
5
Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Are you advocating that belief all by its little lonesome self saves?