Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You sound like an attorney to cares about the law.

The law and the children have both suffered great trauma.

[Newman]

Got to run now.

[revrandy]

Said 31 so far of the 53 children 14-17 had children previously or were pregnant right now...

[Newman]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Said 31 so far of the 53 children 14-17 had children previously or were pregnant right now...

revrandy- These numbers were given by Texas agents and deserve a dose of healthy skeptism.

It is my understanding that only two young women are actually known for sure to be pregnant now, while one refused to be tested.

That means at most, 10% of 31 teenagers who were alleged to be pregnant or have allegedly already given birth are currently pregnant. Doesn't that strike you somewhat odd that there aren't more pregnancies in this age group given the large number of presumbly "married" women not using birth control in this age group?

Isn't it possible that some of the mothers once they realized they were going to be split from their children claimed to be minors?

[Tina]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/...gamist_retreat

As usual, I haven't read the entire thread yet, just saw this related article and wanted to throw in the link.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Newman

From a blog...

The Salt Lake Tribune reports of some of the FLDS children, after removal from their families and homes are now being hospitalized:

At least three children taken from a polygamous sect’s ranch are in the hospital and attorneys for their mothers say they have received little or no information about their conditions.

Attorneys for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid (TRLA) are working to identify the children, the hospitals, and to arrange for their mothers to visit the children.

“We can’t seem to get anyone on the phone with authority to make that happen and the mothers don’t even know the seriousness of the situation,” said Amanda Chisholm, a TRLA attorney.

The legal aid society, which represents 48 mothers, said one 2-year-old child lost a severe amount of weight while staying at the San Angelo Coliseum.

TRLA said the organization was told two days ago that the child was in shock and lethargic, but has received no new information since then about where the child is or regarding her current health situation.

The mother is not being allowed to be with this child or her other nursing children, Chisholm said.

“We don’t seem to be able to get in touch with anyone who can tell us,” she said. The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said Friday that one child had been hospitalized because of dehydration. Attempts today to contact CPS authorities were unsuccessful.

Of course, I don’t speak for Utah or Arizona; but, this type of easily foreseeable result could very well be one of the reasons Utah and Arizona do not make the same ill conceived public policy decisions Texas made of literally throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Of course, Texas, in its continuing brilliant execution of this debacle, still keeps the mothers and children apart–even those now lying seriously ill in the hospital. What will it take to illuminate the poor public policy implications to Texas officials? Do one or more of these children have to die?

There are now reported to be NINE children in the hosptial. Talk about imminent danger...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Tina

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080428/...gamist_retreat

As usual, I haven't read the entire thread yet, just saw this related article and wanted to throw in the link.

Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law.

Isn't that nice? Good grief.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Isn't that nice? Good grief.

Pressing On- These numbers were given by Texas authorities trying to cover their backsides and deserve a healthy dose of skeptism.

1.
It is my understanding that only two young women are actually known for sure to be pregnant now, while one refused to be tested.

That means at most, 10% of 31 teenagers who were alleged to be pregnant or have allegedly already given birth are currently pregnant. Doesn't that strike you somewhat odd that there aren't more pregnancies in this age group given the large number of presumbly "married" women not using birth control in this age group?

2.
Who and how is the age of these young women determined? Classified as minors by Texas or themselves? Any proof one way of the other?

3.
Is it possible the young mothers didn't want to be separated from their kids so they said they were minors? Remember the big reclassification right around the time they were going to split everyone up?

4. Are you aware the age of consent in Texas is 17? In Colorado, 15-17 if there is less than a 10 year difference*? Utah 16-17 if there is less than 10 years difference? How do we know where babies were conceived if ages of said minors are correct as alleged?

5. BUT If these were indeed young women impregnated without the wherewithal to say no, why should they lose their children? Why would we further victimize the victim?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Newman

Pressing On- These numbers were given by Texas authorities trying to cover their backsides and deserve a healthy dose of skeptism.

1.
It is my understanding that only two young women are actually known for sure to be pregnant now, while one refused to be tested.

That means at most, 10% of 31 teenagers who were alleged to be pregnant or have allegedly already given birth are currently pregnant. Doesn't that strike you somewhat odd that there aren't more pregnancies in this age group given the large number of presumbly "married" women not using birth control in this age group?

2.
Who and how is the age of these young women determined? Classified as minors by Texas or themselves? Any proof one way of the other?

3.
Is it possible the young mothers didn't want to be separated from their kids so they said they were minors? Remember the big reclassification right around the time they were going to split everyone up?

4. Are you aware the age of consent in Texas is 17? In Colorado, 15-17 if there is less than a 10 year difference*? Utah 16-17 if there is less than 10 years difference? How do we know where babies were conceived if ages of said minors are correct as alleged?

5. BUT If these were indeed young women impregnated without the wherewithal to say no, why should they lose their children? Why would we further victimize the victim?

Yes, I am aware of the age of consent in Texas. I believe I posted our law on that in an earlier post.

The whole issue of why the compound moved here has always caused the authorities to be concerned and I say, "Rightly so".

They knew about the groups practices and why they left Utah. "Recent cases brought by Utah and Arizona law enforcement authorities to prosecute the problems associated with polygamy -- bigamy, criminal nonsupport of children, child rape, forced marriage of minor girls and fraud of the welfare system -- have shone the spotlight on the insular community."

The strangest thing was when Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran tracked down the representative of record for YFZ Land LLC of Utah, the purchaser of the 1,691 acres. That representative, David Allred, said the property was to be used as a hunting lodge for the company's clients. But the answer didn't sit right with residents.

The community knew that couldn't be right. The locals knew what hunting lodges looked like. They didn't look like dorms. They also wondered with them having elk and bear in Utah why they would want to come and hunt white-tailed deer.

So, really the whole thing has been very suspicious from the get go.

I agree that is was a terrible thing for the children to be separated from their mothers. I'm not aware of any news reports saying there are only two girls that are currently pregnant, nor do I think we have all the facts.

Everything is still speculation. I guess we will see what the judge orders on the 17th.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I am aware of the age of consent in Texas. I believe I posted our law on that in an earlier post.

The whole issue of why the compound moved here has always caused the authorities to be concerned and I say, "Rightly so".

They knew about the groups practices and why they left Utah. "Recent cases brought by Utah and Arizona law enforcement authorities to prosecute the problems associated with polygamy -- bigamy, criminal nonsupport of children, child rape, forced marriage of minor girls and fraud of the welfare system -- have shone the spotlight on the insular community."

The strangest thing was when Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran tracked down the representative of record for YFZ Land LLC of Utah, the purchaser of the 1,691 acres. That representative, David Allred, said the property was to be used as a hunting lodge for the company's clients. But the answer didn't sit right with residents.

The community knew that couldn't be right. The locals knew what hunting lodges looked like. They didn't look like dorms. They also wondered with them having elk and bear in Utah why they would want to come and hunt white-tailed deer.

So, really the whole thing has been very suspicious from the get go.

I agree that is was a terrible thing for the children to be separated from their mothers. I'm not aware of any news reports saying there are only two girls that are currently pregnant, nor do I think we have all the facts.

Everything is still speculation. I guess we will see what the judge orders on the 17th.

Ha! I forgot you are from Texas. Perhaps your normal objectivity is a bit clouded?

1. What happens at other places did not mean it was happening in Texas. The Ranch website claims that they do not get welfare but for the elderly and disabled. I have seen no credible allegations about this specific group of people to the contrary.

2. Disney World didn't tell their surrounding neighbors what they were up to either when they began buying property. Chances are that the group just wanted to be left alone but...

3. They weren't. The library stocked one side of the polygamy story and the Eldorado Newspaper did article after article about them and/or related polygamous groups. A judge or justice even took to flying his plane over their property as did others.

4. Politicians got the law changed and some crimes went from misdemeanors to felonies. The age for marriage was raised specifically because of the polygamist in Eldorado. Is that not indicative of discrimatory practices against a particular religion based on their lifestyle?

5. What was lost on Texas and most of America is that the polygamist are people who bleed just like we do; and have children who their whole lives wrap around just like us.

6. A motion by the church attorney specifically says there are two known pregnant girls and one who refused to take the pregnancy test.

These facts by the attorney are not couched in statistics or cloudy confusion. It is forthright and verifiable. Something that most of the statements coming from Texas authorities haven't been.

7. In fact, it is pretty pathetic to look at all the sensationalized allegations made by Texas authorities and trumpeted to the media that now can be shown to have no basis in reality.

8. And yet Texas holds on to all the children even as nine (2%) of the children are hospitalized. However, physical illness likely pales in compariaon to the psychological harm inflicted by the state upon innocent children in their over-reaching.

But of course a Texas judge will be able to sort everything out May 17th. No political pressure there, eh?