For those who want to know...RULES at my church!

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Sister Truth Seeker

I was thinking of him yesterday...I miss him...someone else I miss is Honhi...

I agree, I was thinking of her recently.

[dizzyde]

Originally Posted by JaneEyre

I can relate to this. It's comforting to know that others have been through similar situations and survived.

Originally Posted by Sister Truth Seeker

You sound like others I have spoken too...I am doing my best to glean the good out and hold tight to it...and let the bad stuff go...I have to beieve in my heart they did not mean anything for evil, they just don't know how what they are doing is killing peoples spirits...you would think that when the church has a revolving door they would get a hint....and there are some long time people that have left not just a few months but years and lifetimes....steady saints not part time ones...

The thing that is saddest of all are all those that have been raised this way and know nothing else...but I do know the UPC is having a hard time hanging onto the youth...perhaps it will change in time...

Originally Posted by Jeanie

Girl you are not alone! Believe me its taken me years--I have just learned to tune some people out.- I know that sound terrible but it helps me survive and not go crazy!

I am so glad to hear these comments, I hesitate to say a lot of things, because I don't want to revel in the past, or play the pity me card.

My life has moved on, and I really am living in the fullness of God's grace and mercy, and His amazing love, but it is conversations like this that help me realize that there is a place for talking about it, if I am not trying to gripe or complain, but bring encouragement and friendship. And that can never be a bad thing!

Originally Posted by dizzyde

I am so glad to hear these comments, I hesitate to say a lot of things, because I don't want to revel in the past, or play the pity me card.

My life has moved on, and I really am living in the fullness of God's grace and mercy, and His amazing love, but it is conversations like this that help me realize that there is a place for talking about it, if I am not trying to gripe or complain, but bring encouragement and friendship. And that can never be a bad thing!

Exactly...I am praying this thread helps many...who many just read it and never post...but it may get them to thinking about their own relationship with God...because this is what this is all about...not church, not the pastor...bless you!

Originally Posted by Esther

I agree, I was thinking of her recently.

I hope she is OK...if anyone knows her tell her we are thinking of her...

[Harmony]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

LOL...yes, I've seen that show, and I understand.

I also understand why it's almost absolutely unbelievable to her...she knows who we are talking about, but my guess is she is only an acquaintance, not a good, close friend of theirs. I will say this; they are some of the kindest, gentlest, wisest people I know. But it doesn't change their leadership ability. This is how they were taught to run a church, and have gathered through the years what it takes to keep people 'saved'. They put their whole hearts into it. But it doesn't make it right. It's still controlling with cult-like tendencies. I'm sure that if they knew that, they would make changes immediately.

Another factor is, these were not 'set in stone' rules. If you were to go up to their face and ask, 'Do you demand your people to consult with you before they make a major purchase?' I'm sure they'd say no. They didn't DEMAND anything. It all came subliminally through messages. It would be the story of the lady who went on vacation without asking 'permission' from the pastor first who was badly injured in a car wreck. If she had asked the pastor first, and he could have prayed about it, then surely God would have directed him and impressed on him 'yeah' or 'nay' as to whether it would be a good idea or not. He could have saved her from that terrible wreck.

I remember one time one of the elders who had been there for YEARS getting up and saying, 'If you go on vacation, and didn't consult with the pastor first, and you get in a wreck, don't you DARE go calling the pastor and ask him to come pray for you.' At the time, I remember amening it on the outside, but on the inside, I think something died in me. It shocked me and hurt me, but I didn't realize it at the time.

Looking from the outside in, you would never guess these kinds of things were being 'taught'. But they were. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the verse 'Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls'. I trusted them completely, totally, and blindly. Without question.

I think one of the main problems with how things were running when we left was that it bred fear, even among the saints. You couldn't even hardly fellowship with any of the saints in your own church for fear that someone would be offended by something someone did wrong, and even worse, our children molested, or commit adultery among ourselves. These were the SAINTS. Those who you labor amongst. Those who should be your best friends and help through the years. Those who were supposed to be 'holy'. I understand the need for caution, but it went overboard to assume distrust first. Looking back on it now, it really saddens me. We were all such good friends, but it became all very superficial because of the distrust.

Good post!!

[Thad]

*** FROM SISTER BEEZER ****



wow i have been reading this thread for almost an hour now, it is incredible. and i was beginning to think i was one of the only ones who had been through such a mess. i was in two different churches like this. believe me, they are very real and very abusive.

the first church i was in, here are some of the rules:
1) no one under any circumstance could wear the color red, or own anything that was red, no red cars, nothing
2) i was not married by the time i moved to this church, so i was required to give the pastor, keys to my house, my car, he had his name put on my bank account. single women could not even run to the grocery store alone.
3) besides the normal you cant cut your hair rule, they had it, if you were 14 or under you were required to wear your hair down. no pony tails, no bows, no clips, nothing. after 14 you were required to wear your hair up at all times until you married. then you could wear your hair down, only in the presence of your spouse. only thing allowed in your hair was bobby pins. not even hair spray was allowed.
4) you could not purchase anything or take a job without the pastors approval and when you first move there or join that church, if he didnt like your job, or home or car, you were forced to change it, imediately.
5) under no circumstances was a single person allowed to have any visitor in their home unless it was same sexed relatives. i was under constant watch because i was a single mother with two sons. he at one point tried to force me to move my sons out of my home, because he said it did not look right for boys to live with a single lady (omg i was their mother!)
6) no sports were allowed at all for anyone at any time. you couldnt even go in your own yard and play catch with your own children and heaven forbid if you shot a basket!
7) they allowed no dating at all. if a guy liked a girl, he met with the pastor for a year, then the pastor went to the girls parents if he approved, and told them that he had her husband. then the marriage was planned between the pastor and parents. after marriage, he said when they could have children and when they couldnt.

i could go on but i am sure this one post wouldnt hold it all. sigh the next church was just as bad, almost the same rules stated applied, plus a few new ones

1) no electronic devices were allowed, no tv, no cell phone, no computer, no radio, no MICROWAVES even, we were required to use wind up alarm clocks even!!
2) if you wanted to go out to eat after a service, you were only allowed to go with your immediate family, and had to order it to take home.
3) under no circumstance were you ever allowed to visit another church, OF ANY KIND! i made the mistake of visiting a revival that a friend from work was going to at her church, and they were apostolic! i wont say what i went through over that one.
4) we were not allowed to go to any kind of doctor, dentist or anyone in the medical profession, no medication is allowed at any time, not so much as an asprin.

anyways the list is endless. what made me finally leave and never go back was, one night around 3am, the pastor came into my home, i was in bed asleep as was my youngest son, he was 15 at the time. the pastor drug my son out of his bed, with the help of four other elders, they took him out into the street into the church building that was across the street and beat him from head to toe. when i asked as to why this was happening, i was told that God told him that my son was watching porn on a tv hidden in his closet! there was no tv anywhere in my home at the time, for we were not allowed any electronics.

this is very real, and there are so many that are being spiritually abused at the hands of so called pastors. if you have not experience this you need to thank God that he protected you, but for many this is very real and very damaging. dont look down on those who leave the churches all together because of this. these kinds of abuses are the worst. its one thing to be abused by friends or family, but when you are abused by your pastor and church it does something that is not easily healed. its easy to sit and pass judgement on us, but until you have walked in our shoes you have no idea just how deep this pain goes.


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EVERYONE PLEASE BE SURE AND READ THIS PLEASE!

[Trouvere]

Thad is this for real? The pastor had a dream and they beat a fifteen year
old in the middle of the night.I would have met them at the door with a 357 and called my local law enforcement.

[Thad]

Originally Posted by Trouvere

Thad is this for real? The pastor had a dream and they beat a fifteen year
old in the middle of the night.I would have met them at the door with a 357 and called my local law enforcement.

I absolutley believe it is for real. Sis beezer has no reason to lie about this. it's a very serious topic we are discussing here and one that i noticed that a lot folks are ignoring !!!! ummm wonder why

[Trouvere]

who is Sister Beezer?

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Thad

and turned to what ???

Non-fundamentalist Christianity?

Originally Posted by dizzyde

I agree, in my experience, I was very disallusioned with the church and the ministry (and I will point out it was really just one person who reduced me to this state), and I didn't want anything to do with it, and I did have a lot of peace when I first left. But eventually I knew that I needed more, and luckily at that point I had been back around really loving, truly Christian people, and I found my way back into relationship with God.

I honestly don't know if I will ever get to that point, or if I even WANT to get to that point. I do have 3 people that I trust implicitly and discuss spiritual issues with them. 2 of them are ex-UPC'ers that have been through similar experiences to mine, but are further along on the road to healing. The 3rd is still technically UPC, but along the lines of how I was for the last year or so before I left; not ready to leave, but not willing to play by the "rules" either.

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I can understand you here. We started going to church during my teens and most "formative" years. I HATED school with a passion that few understand and looked forward to the weekend and being able to be by myself... except we were in Church ALL day Sunday and had "revival" services two out of three weeks (it seemed to me). I thought suicidal thoughts constantly as I simply could not deal with it anymore -that and the list of rules.

Now, 20 plus years later, I STILL have NAM-like flashbacks to those days, especially when certain songs are played and never actually "enjoyed" going to Church on Sunday morning again.

I guess I never thought of them as being "suicidal" thoughts, but definitely along the lines of "God, since I can't seem to be everything you want me to be, and since I can't stand the thought of living the next 50 years in this miserable state, just kill me now..."

What you call flashbacks, I call triggers, and they seem to be hidden everywhere, christian music, the Bible, church, even on AFF (which is why I usually only show up once a month or so when I am unaccountably bored)