Tithing…Is it a command?

[Jason B]

Before I converted (I'm a little embarrassed to say) I used to watch professional wrestling. I remember a particular character named "The Million Dollar Man" whose theme as he approached the ring was:

"Money, Money, Money, Money"

Kind of reminds me of some churches.

Just sayin'

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

So it is totally up to the preacher if he WANTS to put the saints under obligation (IOW bondage) to support him?

1 Corinthians 9 really answers this quite clearly. Paul does a great job dealing with this. I'm convinced that you're more than capable of studying this and coming to a very similar conclusion.

However, it is a personal decision. One minister cannot decide for another. Each must decide for themselves.

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

And granted you didn't write those passages but I'm not convinced you are correctly interpreting them either.

Yes, that's become quite apparent. There are many posts that really convey the attitude that they will never provide any support (monetary or otherwise) for the "corrupt, money-grubbing preachers" that they're stuck with. There is a great disdain for the ministry in this and other threads. Instead, they will give their resource to some far-off, disconnected place.

This discussion on tithes has revealed many underlying attitudes.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by HRea

Have you learned anything from a minister? Have you fulfilled your obligation to the teacher under Galatians 6:6?

Do you have a pastor that watches for your soul? Have you fulfilled your obligation to your pastor under 1 Corinthians 9?

Have you been obedient to the Lord's command in 1 Corinthians 9:14?

Do you understand the principle (like the Corinthians understood) that Paul was conveying in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14?

What God instituted in the new testament was far weightier and broader that what was given to the Levities. Each hearer becomes obligated to the teacher. You can say that tithes took this form or was only given by this one or that one, but the new testament clearly ties each believer to the responsibility of providing for the minister that God placed in their church.

The method example that Paul uses to accomplish this is the tithe of the old testament. And he is teaching a Gentile church this.

We work off of the command. I see no command to tithe money. "in like manner" When did this change to money take place? Who changed it?

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Rudy

We work off of the command. I see no command to tithe money. "in like manner" When did this change to money take place? Who changed it?

Thank you for tasking me to begin where I've been diligently pointing. Starting here...how do we get to...there. Whereas the Levitical tithe was paid in vegetables, cattle, and occasionally temple shekels (redeemed tithes), 1 Corinthians 9 v6 and v11 make the jump to wages.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by HRea

1 Corinthians 9 really answers this quite clearly. Paul does a great job dealing with this. I'm convinced that you're more than capable of studying this and coming to a very similar conclusion.

However, it is a personal decision. One minister cannot decide for another. Each must decide for themselves.




Yes, that's become quite apparent. There are many posts that really convey the attitude that they will never provide any support (monetary or otherwise) for the "corrupt, money-grubbing preachers" that they're stuck with. There is a great disdain for the ministry in this and other threads. Instead, they will give their resource to some far-off, disconnected place.

This discussion on tithes has revealed many underlying attitudes.

So that is your proof text that Paul taught tithing? Please resign. Russell Kelley trumps you.

9:13 Do you not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? And they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?



In order to understand God’s Word, most of us must first clear our heads of the assumption that all priests and all Levites were full-time ministers and full time servants for God. Actually, during most of the year over 95% of the priests and Levites (23 of 24 courses) were NOT in the Jerusalem Temple but were “in their fields” with their wives, children, and servants (Num. 35:2; 2 Chron. 31:15-19; Neh. 10:37,38; 11:20; 12:44,47; 13:10). Except for the high priest, they did not permanently live in Jerusalem because it was NOT a Levitical city (Joshua 21) where the Law commanded them to live.



According to Edersheim, priests received income from 24 sources and their tenth of the tithe was one of the least.[2] All of the firstfruits, firstborn, vow offerings, .. animal skins, and portions of sacrifices ONLY went to those priests who were presently “grinding the grain”—ministering at the Temple.

Today, while many gospel workers desire to follow Paul’s examples in soul-winning, few want to follow his example in self-sacrifice for the sake of the gospel. Indebted to no man, and obligated to no man (except to preach the gospel), Paul had no intention of teaching tithing for himself or others! He simply did not see tithing as part of God’s New Covenant plan of freedom and liberty. Also, we must not forget that, at the time this letter was written, the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem were still fanatically devoting themselves to the Mosaic Law and, therefore, were still tithing to the Temple per Acts 21:20.



9:14 Even so (in the same manner)



There are several major spokesmen for tithing who use 1st Corinthians 13, 14 as their strongest argument for Christian tithing. They ignore the connection between 9:7 through 9:14 and focus instead only on verses 13 and 14. The key word in their argument is the first Greek word in the verse which means “in the same manner.”



MAJORITY HERMENEUTIC: This first word in verse 14 refers back to all of verses 7 through 13. The principle, or hermeneutic, is “Each group (secular and sacred) has a ‘right’ to share from that activity in which it works.” All six of the examples demonstrate that one is sustained by the principles of the activity in which he labors. “In the same manner” gospel workers live by gospel principles from which they labor.” Verse 14 is a final conclusion to all of verses 7-13 which change from secular to Law to gospel. In verse 15 “these rights” (NIV) again refers to everything mentioned in verses 7-13 and not merely verse 13. All of the context of 9:7-13 is considered and almost all commentaries agree. Do the research.



MINORITY HERMENEUTIC: Verse 14 is only a conclusion which closely connects verse 13 with it. Verse 13 clearly states that Temple workers were sustained by tithing. New Covenant gospel workers have replaced Old Covenant Temple workers. Therefore New Covenant gospel workers should be supported “in the same many” or “using the same principles” as Old Covenant workers.



In September 2005 Allan Meyer introduced this logic by saying, “We are getting near the punch-line folks” and concluded by saying “Deal with 1 Cor 9 honestly or get out of the kitchen.” He summed up his hermeneutic in February 2006 saying, “By the same principle. That principle, that principle running right through the Old Testament, where God's workforce were looked after by the tithe is to be applied in the New Testament context as the way in which God's workers in the New Testament will be supplied.”



REBUTTAL: This argument is self-defeating because it proves too much! This is because Numbers 18 is not an exclusive reference to tithing, but includes ALL forms of Levitical support which tithe-teachers definitely do not want to allow! When they insist that gospel workers are to be paid “in the same way” that Old Covenant priests were paid in Numbers 18, then they have recklessly opened the door wide to the real principles found in Numbers 18. In reality it is very good that they literally follow NONE of those OT principles! See my chapters on Numbers 18 and Principles for Tithe-Teaching Churches.



It is more wrong than correct to say “It was the tithe that supported God’s servants in the Old Testament dispensation” because the priests received most of their support from things other than the tithe –things such as freewill offerings, vow offerings and sacrifices (Numbers 18:1-19). Priests only received one tenth of the whole Levitical tithe (Num 18:25-28; Neh 10:37-38). As previously pointed out, modern “Levite” equivalents in Christian churches are not ministers and are often unpaid. It is also wrong to equate New Covenant preachers as the replacement for the Old Covenant priests.



Adopting Old Testament giving principles “in the same manner” would force the church to also copy every other Levitical and priestly support principle found in the Old Testament. This logic would forbid missionary support and would require churches to abolish the doctrine of the priesthood of believers and put to death those who tried to worship God directly.



The Key Verse

9:14 Even so has the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.



This text is quoted more than any other text by gospel workers to prove that they deserve “full-time” support for their ministry. Since several people who have read the first edition of this book have wrongly concluded that I oppose supporting full-time gospel workers, I need to carefully state my understanding of Scripture. My complaint is with those who twist Scripture and teach that all .. ministers should be full-time because the Bible teaches it. My previous chapters on First Chronicles 23-26, Second Chronicles 31, Nehemiah 10-13 and my discussions of the Levitical cities in Joshua 21 have convinced me that neither priests nor Levites ever worked “full-time” as ministers. Biblical, rabbinic, and secular history all confirm the fact that many priests, Levites, and rabbis supported themselves in various trades, crafts, and political positions both inside and outside of the events of God’s Word.

Here's the video lesson. Try refuting this sound teaching. Repent for teaching a lie from the pit of hell.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

The first commandment in the Law is to love God with all our heart, mind and being, So now we can love God less?

Since we are now in Christ
Do you go and kill, do you go and steal? Do you covet?


Now that I walk in the Spirit I do not. "against such there is no law"


Think not that I have come to destroy the law or the prophets, I have not come to destroy but to fulfill, where did Jesus ever said that he was going to disannul the law?
Fulfill means "finalize" or "finish", as in fulfill(finish) a task. The writer of Hebrews in 7:18-19 calls the law disannulled

When we are in Christ we keep the law even better than the Pharisees ever did for Jesus actually elevated the law.
Not at all. We are DEAD to the Law...Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.


We still keep the lessons that the Law taught us even though we no longer are under the law but under Christ.
we still keep the precepts that the law taught us even though we are not longer under the law, but under grace.

Our job is to walk in the spirit and then, we are in no obligation to the law. Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

I mean do you refuse to tie your shoes, because that is a thing taught to a child, have you quit washing your hands, since are not longer a child? have you stopped brushing your teeth since you have no more parents to remind you of it?

If you are going that route, you better not do anything that were taught as a child.

If we walk in the Spirit,we wont even need the Law for a reference. The Law is for those that do not have the Holy Ghost.(before faith comes)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by HRea

Thank you for tasking me to begin where I've been diligently pointing. Starting here...how do we get to...there. Whereas the Levitical tithe was paid in vegetables, cattle, and occasionally temple shekels (redeemed tithes), 1 Corinthians 9 v6 and v11 make the jump to wages.

Brother, incidentally, your theory of the 5 fold ministry compared to the Levitical priesthood is wrong...ALL of the saints collectively are compared to the Levitical priesthood. We are equals and priests unto our God with only ONE HIGH PRIEST...JESUS. That is EXACTLY why tithing was not mentioned in the N.T. church.(priests did not pay tithes to priests)

[Sean]

9 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

This passage says nothing of tithing at all. It only makes the case that the minister may forbear physical work and live of the gospel. The benevolent fund that was used for widows, orphans and the weak was to be partaken of by the minister also. The benevolent fund was the only method of offering taking mentioned in the N,T, church. There was NO indication of any mandatory giving by ANYONE in this passage. The dirt poor, widows and orphans were on the receiving end along with the minister in the N,T, church and were not obligated to give(especially 10% of their benevolent gifts), only recieve.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by HRea

There are many posts that really convey the attitude that they will never provide any support (monetary or otherwise) for the "corrupt, money-grubbing preachers" that they're stuck with. There is a great disdain for the ministry in this and other threads. Instead, they will give their resource to some far-off, disconnected place.

This discussion on tithes has revealed many underlying attitudes.

Brother I love preachers. I love saints. I love being in the church. Do I believe there are money grubbing preachers? Yes I absolutely do. Do I think its a big percentage? No I don't. My guess would be that at least 80% if preachers who teach tithing are sincere or at the very least money is not their no.1 concern. And it could be an even higher % as that us just a number off the top of my head based on my experience and opinion.

I do think that some statement on this thread reveal bad doctrine of the type that has been used to exploit people for the sake of filthy lucre, but I am not insinuating that you, GS, or even UT are in it for the money.

I hope that clarifies my stance somewhat. I still believe you are on the wrong side of this issue but unless you give me reason to believe otherwise you are my brother in Christ and I will treat you with respect while discussing this issue.

[Sean]

Its funny how hard hearted many of these tithe teaching ministers actually are. They expect the Christian that is paying child support, alimony and taxes to pay tithes on the gross of their income FIRST. Even if these poor souls owe thousands of back pay or back taxes. Child support or the IRS can throw you in jail, but these tithe ministers will throw you in hell. This is a damnable and hopeless message and a HUGE stumblingblock to scores of wonderful, godly brethren that I know.

What an evil, selfish and unbiblical message they preach to our messed up world through their GREED. I have been observing it for over 35 years of my life now. It is the #1 stumblingblock of the oneness movement, and the rest of Christianity for that matter.

This doctrine regarding the N.T. church is right out of Catholicism.