Tulsa Report Day 2

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by CC1

I understood you to be a fan or reality TV!!!!!

OK! I edited that statement a wee bit!

But no, not a fan of Wife Swap or other TV.

I am just not inclined to treat it different than other media and know there is value there. Given the choice however, I will choose the internet for news, information, and yes even entertainment. My dislike for professional sports influences this choice (since football seems to have such a strong appeal among my friends).

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

I agree with your statement in principle.

I believe I understand your point - it's about discontented brethren with an unattainable churchview of an absolute Church living ABSOLUTELY. If the early church is any example, and I believe it definitely is, there is nothing absolute about the church at all as it relates to personal and corporate behavior, at least in terms of individual and collective holiness. The writings of the Apostle Paul are fully of corrections and admonishments to these congregations. And, they in turn, were continually attempting to live a godly life in this present world.

The trouble with this unattainable churchview is that it mimics the Old Testament law, and in doing so, places an unrealistic performance level on those who attempt to conform to it. Israelites could not, in fact, live up to the Law. It was God's Law; it was His will, and it was perfect. But, real men and women were incapable (even given a sincere desire to obey) of meeting the Law's high standards.

The UC among us is often characterized by the inability to recognize the falibility of saints. I realize this is a generalization of the movement, and I'm willing to give and take as necessary, but GENERALLY, the final destination (heaven or hell) of entire congregations is based SOLELY on the individual's conformity and ABSOLUTE obedience to a given set of standards (laws, little "L"). In this case, it is NOT God's law; it is NOT His will and it is NOT perfect. Yes, the Holy Ghost is present to guide and empower the NT convert(at least, that is my assumption for this argument), but if the Holy Ghost is not "teaching" these man-made standards, then the individual will not be "led" to conform or obey. It will, then, be left to the enforcer of the standard to step in. This enforcer usually takes a step-by-step approach in "encouraging" compliance...

1. friendly persuation...encouraging the individual to reach for "more" of God..a great level of sacrifice...and greater dedication and intimacy with God
2. friendly intimidation...educating the individual on the negative aspects of noncompliance, i.e., ineligible for positions, leadership, use, etc. etc....
3. friendly pressure (always with a smile)...admonishing the indivual on the need for maintaining a standard of holiness...achieving a place with God that few others can't...
4. unfriendly pressure and intimidation...warning the individual of ungodliness and the dangers of loving the world and the things in the world...clearly intimating that noncompliance will result in separation of God and His love...
5. unfriendly separation, shunning and expulsion...judging the individual to be found wanting and unworthy of further effort...a lost cause.

There are no doubt other steps in between. However, if unbiblical standards are taught as "salvation issues," where is the Holy Ghost's role in perfecting saints? The Holy Ghost is circumvented by the "under-shepherd." Now the Law is rewritten by the "man of God." If the Word doesn't completely address the issue, the "under-shepherd" clarifies the missing Word with His word...and makes it critical by assigning it an ABSOLUTE value - conform and make heaven...do not conform and be assured of hell's fire.

This phenomena is much more serious than we can imagine - to institutionalize our convictions and write them in between the lines of His Word - is to risk hell's fire - not on the part of the saint, but on the part of the "new lawgiver!" It is a strange fire brought from "without the camp."

Enough of my brilliance...

Brilliant indeed.

I appreciate your grasp on the doctrine of grace, seen here in these words.

Grace should endure unto graciousness among all who name the name of Jesus, not being so quick to contend for what a wider view of grace and graciousness would consider so small...so small.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

...and many other things.

I guess this is what worries me most...and many other things. How many "other things" are there? I said that I preach the principles of His Word...He has place sufficient principles to preach and teach about the dangers of drug abuse and pornography...but do I just carry that on and preach my dress codes as gospel, or do I couch my personal convictions in those terms - my convictions, not God's.

Rev. Buddy.....

If you don't mind my asking because it's related to a question your post brought to my mind ....... are you licensed with UPC?

[George]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

You might be surprised to know that I agree with you for the most part. I think the reall issue has MUCH more to do with the direction they feel others are heading than it does with any particular standards.

As to California as compared to some of the other districts? You are exactly right.

Yet, as you very well know, they are a large enough group to sway votes at gen. conf. but they didn't stay in the fight. They could have controlled the direction.
Because we have held these men in such high esteem, it is beyond our finite minds to believe they have been less than ethical. Nearly everyone of the executive committee lost district or regional positions by very narrow margins. This leads the general population to believe they desire position so much they will form their own organization to guarantee their status. We are once again back at square one struggling to believe it could possibly be eogs as the driving force. Even so, there isn't anything wrong with desiring position.....unless you lose your ethics in so doing.

[RevBuddy]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Rev. Buddy.....

If you don't mind my asking because it's related to a question your post brought to my mind ....... are you licensed with UPC?

Should I be?

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by CC1

Steadfast,

If I were a cynical man I would think you are positioning yourself to preach meetings for the Tulsaites!!!

I could be wrong but I seem to remember you giving much less weight to this meeting before 1,000 of your conservative brethern showed up for it. I could be wrong. According to my wife I have been wrong before. A lot.

I'm sure this is on the minds of many of them.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by George

Yet, as you very well know, they are a large enough group to sway votes at gen. conf. but they didn't stay in the fight. They could have controlled the direction.
Because we have held these men in such high esteem, it is beyond our finite minds to believe they have been less than ethical. Nearly everyone of the executive committee lost district or regional positions by very narrow margins. This leads the general population to believe they desire position so much they will form their own organization to guarantee their status. We are once again back at square one struggling to believe it could possibly be eogs as the driving force. Even so, there isn't anything wrong with desiring position.....unless you lose your ethics in so doing.

Another ozone filled negative post.

Are you hitting up the fruit that is too warm, George?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by RevBuddy

Should I be?

Why are you asking me? LOL. Should you? I don't know. That's your choice. But my question was, "are you"?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Brilliant indeed.

I appreciate your grasp on the doctrine of grace, seen here in these words.

Grace should endure unto graciousness among all who name the name of Jesus, not being so quick to contend for what a wider view of grace and graciousness would consider so small...so small.

This would make a great quote.

Originally Posted by CC1

You came to Christ Church Nashville and didn't even call me???!!!!!

Now I have to admit that is funny!