Can someone please tell me...?!

[Felicity]

Pelathais........

I very much appreciated your post (#49). Glad you shared that.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I hope I wasn't misunderstood. When I put the "weak on doctrine" remark in quotes like that I meant to convey that this is not my opinion of the men you listed.

Of all the names I can say that I only met one, Brother Beesley, personally. But I was greatly influenced by the writings of John Dearing when I was a teenager and greatly admired the man. Brother Greer was a mentor for men that helped to shape my life and beliefs.

That being said, I was brought up and discipled in what many would call the "opposite" school of thought within the UPC. I respect and have appreciated what these "conservatives" (their word for themselves, not mine) have done for me and my family over the years.

However, in the long run I would have to say that those closest to me have probably hurt the fellowship a great deal. I am disappointed to say that it was their criticism of men like Brothers Greer, Dearing, Beesley and the others (and even still some more) that was most hurtful. It was wrong to "kick them to the curb..."

UPC ministers, in order to get a Local License had to read dozens of Bible Studies written by John Dearing (no longer the case). The fact that this was required reading led me to believe at the time that the UPC taught Dearing's exposition of Romans 4:17 - this was Dearing's consolation regarding his saintly grandmother who had passed before the Holy Ghost outpouring in 1900 and the revelation of the Mighty God in Christ. He felt that "by faith..." God would call his grandmother's Matthew 28:19 style baptism as being sufficient for salvation. Since I had to read this and learn this in order to become a minister, I thought that this was our doctrine -that "trinitarians" can be saved.

In 1992, this was all done away with. The UPC told me (and everyone else) to forget what we had learned from them. They were changing the fundamental doctrine and everyone had to line up and agree with the change- without adequate explanation or discussion. Was anyone else in that meeting?

What you call "kicking to the curb..." - I would go even further and say it was a deliberate act of deception against the entire ministerial constituancy. One of our greatest leaders had to apologize the following year for telling a little fib in order to get that resolution passed. This man had the greatest reputation imaginable, and deserved it! Yet our destructive way of doing business forced such a good man to tell a lie. The direct result of that lie is the UPC of today.

I hope this helps. I did find agreement with what you said. This medium of exchange can be kind of bumpy for me when I try to communicate.

Sir, you posted just fine. It is I, who in the wee hours this morning saw "weak on doctrine," and didn't pay any attention to quotes...my mistake.

Along with Felicity, I very much appreciated your post. If you feel to and have further information that will help me in my quest, I would be muchly beholden.

[LadyRev]

Bro. Wm Greer's signature is on the bottom of a copy of Rev. Hazel M. Simpson's ordination papers which are displayed on a plaque that hangs on the wall of the Millington UPC, Millington, TN. To the credit of the current pastor, it is one of the first things he did when he took over the church - which was to honor the woman of God that pastored it for 27 years before him. The display of this plaque was just one of many things he did.

Bro. Greer didn't win any brownie points for approving the ordination of a woman. But then again, he didn't care about brownie points!

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I never heard of a number of men and women mentioned in CWTC. That's why it's important to read. There is a lot of valuable information and history there that many will never ever know because they've never been exposed to the info.

Even if what others say - that it was written with an agenda and with an attitude - it isn't a good reason to discount the book itself or the information contained therein.

It's not like it's going to hurt anyone for pete's sake. It's just history ... much of which has been well documented in more than one way.

Historically, books have been burned because why? Because of "fear" mostly.

Originally Posted by Barb

I agree, but fear of what, Felicity?! That some may learn that the UPCI was founded by good men from two Apostolic groups, who held to the same basic doctrine, yet with differences of opinion?!

Fear that some may come to know that this united effort of not contending for the different views to the disunity of the Body worked for 40+ years?!

Fear that we might understand that the Church as it stands today is still made up of a diversity of people whose core beliefs are the same, yet there remains the differences?!

Fear that coming to this understanding, one may shed their convictions?!

I cannot explain really why this is disturbing me so tonight, but it is...to think that I thought I knew my background, only to come to the realization that I really didn't know at all.

Perhaps I am just naive...that this is the way of the world, be it secular or religious.

I don't know...

Can someone shed light on these men...where they were from...their accomplishments for Kingdom sake?!

As I was out running an errand this afternoon, I thought about the posts above and wondered if anyone could expound on this fear factor...

[Barb]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

Bro. Wm Greer's signature is on the bottom of a copy of Rev. Hazel M. Simpson's ordination papers which are displayed on a plaque that hangs on the wall of the Millington UPC, Millington, TN. To the credit of the current pastor, it is one of the first things he did when he took over the church - which was to honor the woman of God that pastored it for 27 years before him. The display of this plaque was just one of many things he did.

Bro. Greer didn't win any brownie points for approving the ordination of a woman. But then again, he didn't care about brownie points!

I'm sure he didn't...

[Sam]

It is my understanding that all of the men listed in Barb's post were what we refer to as PCI one-steppers. In other words, they believed that a person was saved/regenerated at repentance and then that person was expected to go on and submit to water baptism in Jesus' name and to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

We don't really know how many ministers were one-steppers and how many were three steppers when the UPC was formed in 1945. I think people have been less than truthful when they have quoted numbers. Maybe they just didn't know or maybe they wanted to show that those of their particular viewpoint were more numerous than the others.

It is my understanding that when the UPC was formed the following were one-steppers:
Howard Goss, Gen. Supt.
E.E. McNatt, Sunday School Director
Wynn Stairs, Foreign Missionary Director
plus some of the district overseers, elders, or supts (whatever they were called) like Bro. Greer, Bro. Yadon and maybe more.

When the first issue of the Pentecostal Herald came out in 1945 it stated that articles presenting either opinion on the new birth were acceptable as long as they were not written in an argumentative way.

As far as I understand, in the new UPC organization the Bible Schools in Tupelo and Portland were one-stepper in doctrine, the schools in St. Paul and Tulsa were three-stepper in doctrine, and the school in Stockton was open to either opinion.

It is my understanding that over the years the one-steppers were minimized, trivialized, ostracized, demonized, marginalized and generally just plain despised by the three-steppers. As the three-steppers gained more political clout the one-steppers were pretty well pushed out. The Fundamental Doctrine Statement was modified in 1972 in an attempt to oust them. Then the Affirmation Statement was pushed through based on lies, deception, bullying, intimidation and disregarding the rules set forth in the bylaws to further remove these folks from the UPC.

A sad commentary on the situation is that an otherwise respected elder like Bro K. would lie like he did to get that AF through, thus silencing many good men and women in the faith.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Sam

It is my understanding that all of the men listed in Barb's post were what we refer to as PCI one-steppers. In other words, they believed that a person was saved/regenerated at repentance and then that person was expected to go on and submit to water baptism in Jesus' name and to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.

We don't really know how many ministers were one-steppers and how many were three steppers when the UPC was formed in 1945. I think people have been less than truthful when they have quoted numbers. Maybe they just didn't know or maybe they wanted to show that those of their particular viewpoint were more numerous than the others.

It is my understanding that when the UPC was formed the following were one-steppers:
Howard Goss, Gen. Supt.
E.E. McNatt, Sunday School Director
Wynn Stairs, Foreign Missionary Director
plus some of the district overseers, elders, or supts (whatever they were called) like Bro. Greer, Bro. Yadon and maybe more.

When the first issue of the Pentecostal Herald came out in 1945 it stated that articles presenting either opinion on the new birth were acceptable as long as they were not written in an argumentative way.

As far as I understand, in the new UPC organization the Bible Schools in Tupelo and Portland were one-stepper in doctrine, the schools in St. Paul and Tulsa were three-stepper in doctrine, and the school in Stockton was open to either opinion.

It is my understanding that over the years the one-steppers were minimized, trivialized, ostracized, demonized, marginalized and generally just plain despised by the three-steppers. As the three-steppers gained more political clout the one-steppers were pretty well pushed out. The Fundamental Doctrine Statement was modified in 1972 in an attempt to oust them. Then the Affirmation Statement was pushed through based on lies, deception, bullying, intimidation and disregarding the rules set forth in the bylaws to further remove these folks from the UPC.

A sad commentary on the situation is that an otherwise respected elder like Bro K. would lie like he did to get that AF through, thus silencing many good men and women in the faith.

Wow!! Those who know me well know this doesn't happen often, but I am near speechless!!

This is too fantastic for words...wow!!

[Barb]

Just came back on to say that I so appreciate everyone's information on this thread...thank you!!

[Barb]

Pelathais, do you have any further info re Bro. Dearing?!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sam

It is my understanding that all of the men listed in Barb's post were what we refer to as PCI one-steppers. In other words, they believed that a person was saved/regenerated at repentance and then that person was expected to go on and submit to water baptism in Jesus' name and to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism. ...

I haven't heard the "one stepper/three stepper" phrase for years, thanks Sam! You've hit the ball out of the park on this one.

And, for Barb and others: I offer this by way of semi-introduction. I resigned my post and my credentials back in the late '90s but I still have family whose ministries I do not wish to impact at all with my online ravings.

My own father-in-the-gospel was from the PCI and PAW tradition but ardently supported the "three steeper" way. I didn't really realize it until years later, but I think his background may help to explain his behavior and just how hard he was toward people he perceived as being "soft." It's like he was trying to compensate for having been of the PCI way of thinking when everything around him seemed to be changing.

I also knew the men that forced the '92 resolution through. I knew, and still know many of their family members quite well. FWIW.

For years I sat and socialized with the most "conservative" elements of the UPC. These are generally good Christian gentlemen (and ladies) who almost always showed me kindness and support. However, there was one button that you could push and they would rip your head off. It was this whole PCI/PAJC or "1 stepper/3 stepper" issue and especially who was being "soft" or "weak." There was a definite culture of "toughness" there that has gone on to flavor the entire fellowship with what I find to be a bitter taste.

When they did rip my head off, it was in an attempt to "save the ministry" of one of their cohorts. I refused to play along, an innocent man was killed and I left the organization after having tried to force my card into the ear of my presbyter (figuratively speaking, of course).

About the card and the ear, figuratively speaking... the rest was all too real and probably plays a big part in why I must see a cardiologist so often. After all that, I just couldn't see how "God" was playing any active role in what I was doing as a part of the UPC.

I was only small potatoes, but if you ever taught a Home Bible Study with "official" material or sat through a general conference in the 80's and early 90's, you saw me or held my pic in your hands. I was there. I watched. I listened. And I participated with everything that I had to give.

And I watched as good men were destroyed right up until they tried to do me in as well. But how did they fare? The man who replaced me in the local church is reading this post (if he can get it at all) from his jail cell in Texas. The adulterous man went ahead and ran off with his secretary even after he had so much help in covering it up.

I dunno, maybe God really is there? But I have to see a cardiologist for another follow up echo-cardiogram in a couple of weeks. And it turns out one of my fondest friends, still strong in the UPC, has a similar condition.

I don't blame "Bishop X" (or whoever) for what happened. I say WE and US.

We did this. What We are we are because of OUR behavior. I'll go ahead and name a name here - when The group of about 100 men came into the auditorium at GC in 1992 and began yelling "Question! Question!" how come the rest of us didn't jump right up and join them?

I believe that was a pivotal moment for the UPC and WE let God down, as well as leaving those men to slowly twist in the wind.

WE were wrong.