Why do we use trinitarian..........

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I agree. I think it is stuff like that pushes people away. Stinking Elitism!

Once again, I find elitism with Trinitarians I talk to. It goes both ways. If you're going to bash Oneness then please bash the Trinitarians that do and say the same thing.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

It's definitely not mere semantics but I think you're approaching this the wrong way.

Oneness teaches that there is one God and that this one God is manifested as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are merely manifestations of this one God, wouldn't it be more accurate to ask if Jesus is the one God? You can replace "manifestations" with "modes" if you wish. Let me ask you: How can Jesus be God if He is just a manifestation or mode of God?


Now, for some comparisons:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty...And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages...and we believe in the Holy Spirit."

- From the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed -

"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

- 1 Corinthians 8:6 -

"There is one God, Jesus."

- A simplistic stating of oneness belief -

Also, consider the following:

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

- John 14:28 -

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

- John 20:17 -

"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."

- Colossians 2:9 -

Jesus never said He was "the Father." He did, however, say the Father was greater than He.

You're using the term "Father" interchangeably with the word "God" and, in so doing, are doing exactly what many modern trinitarians do when they try to explain away oneness explanations of certain passages (the old, "Well 'God' in this passage really means 'the Father'").

My point is in the following three questions:

1. What is it about GOD that makes HIM "the Father"?
2. What is it about GOD that makes HIM "the Son"?
3. What is it about GOD that makes HIM "the Holy Spirit"?

Chan,

Take this to Deep Waters and I'll discuss it with you there.

I believe that the same God that we worship is the same God that the trinitarians worship... and for that matter the same God that the Muslims worship... they all originate with the same God, even though each has gone down different paths since then. The origin remains the same even if they understand God differently... I'm sure everyone will disagree with me here, as usual. lol.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

I believe that the same God that we worship is the same God that the trinitarians worship... and for that matter the same God that the Muslims worship... they all originate with the same God, even though each has gone down different paths since then. The origin remains the same even if they understand God differently... I'm sure everyone will disagree with me here, as usual. lol.

Were all the false gods that the Bible calls the worshipping of devils also the same God?

1Co 10:20 - But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

[jwharv]

Well this thread certainly took an intresting direction. I want to clarify a point I was trying to make in a round about way by starting this thread. I see the Oneness of God as biblical truth plain and simple. However around here it always seems to me we attack the people who believe the trinitarian doctrine more then the doctrine itself.

Why must the slogan of so many be "All trinitarians are going to hell"? Shouldn't we be pointing out trinitarian error instead of condeming alot of very sincere people to hell?

I have many freinds who are trinitarians many have a close walk with God and long to know more of him. With sincerity like that I believe many will eventualy find the truth. However, when I keep seeing people condeming them to hell I just wonder if the door to the truth isn't being slammed in their face...........

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Were all the false gods that the Bible calls the worshipping of devils also the same God?

1Co 10:20 - But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

No, but if God doesn't change and they started out worshipping the God of the Old Testamant and have the exact same origins, then technically it is still the same God, even if their perception is different.

If I invent a God called Jabwersdflzrtizn then the God that I invented does not have an origin with the Jewish God of the bible, therefore is not the same God. This is simple to me, maybe I am just not explaining it properly.

[nathan_slatter]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

If I invent a God called Jabwersdflzrtizn then the God that I invented does not have an origin with the Jewish God of the bible, therefore is not the same God. This is simple to me, maybe I am just not explaining it properly.

Say that 5 times really fast...

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Would you rather call it a 'misunderstanding' about WHO God is? I can't find the Trinity in scripture so that tells me, it doesn't exist and is a false teaching about WHO God is.

The word "oneness" isn't in scripture either. Neither, for that matter, is the word "Pentecostal." Oh, if you're going to quote from the Creeds, please quote from the Orthodox versions and not the Roman Catholic versions that actually changed the doctrine.

Trinitarians call each person of the Trinity, God. So The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Then they equivocate on the meaning of the word, God. When you read the definition of the Trinity above, how do you envision this God who is a Trinity? Can this God say 'I AM' truthfully?

Yes, trinitarians do say that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all "God" by nature, i.e. "God" is what they are, though some trinitarians say God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet others say that the three "persons" (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) are in God or that God is in the three persons ("God in three persons, blessed trinity").

Is your understanding of God the same as in the two references I quoted? Is your God and their God the same God by definition? Be truthful and honest with yourself.

Well, I don't agree with the Roman Catholic version of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed - because it has the oxymoron of a Son that is "eternally begotten" and because it says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son" (contrary to Jesus' saying the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father).

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Chan,

Take this to Deep Waters and I'll discuss it with you there.

Feel free to take it there if you wish.

I think it is dangerous when every time someone has a "revelation" about God, that they say that everyone who hasn't had that revelation worships a different God... when the day before the "revelation" it was the same God.