2 Peter 3

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Really?

How about being taught by the apostles?

That's my point, which you missed. YOU have imported a man made interpretation through which you read the NT, exactly like trinitarians do. Instead of allowing the whole Bible to TELL YOU what the terms and phrases mean. Apparently you either did not read the thread on the Son of Man, or you ignored it. So, for others who are reading, I am reposting the relevant data

Originally Posted by Esaias

Therefore the term "coming of the Lord" is a reference to a TYPE of event and NOT to a specific occurrence of an event.

Some Biblical proof of the assertion:

The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see. Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles. I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
(Isaiah 13:1-19)

Here, God pronounces the downfall of Babylon at the hands of the Medes. The event is called "the day of the Lord", filled with His "wrath and indignation". The coming of the Medes with their armies is said to be the coming of the Lord Himself: "They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land." Cosmic disturbances are spoken of: the sun, moon, and stars being darkened and put out. The heavens would be shaken, the earth moved out of its place (as in a global earthquake).

This is language used in Scripture concerning the destruction of the Babylonian empire at the hand of the Medes, not the "second coming" or the end of the world. Also, it should be noted that this day of the Lord was said to be "at hand". Isaiah gave this prophecy approximately 250 years before Babylon fell to the Medes, yet it was "at hand" when the prophecy was spoken.

The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.
(Isaiah 19:1-4)

Here is a prophecy against Egypt which was fulfilled when that country was torn apart by civil war, resulting in twelve kingdoms (known historically as the "Dodekarchy"). This took place in 695 BC. The Egyptians rose up against their Ethiopian overlords, overthrew them, and dissolved the kingdom into civil war between 12 smaller kingdoms that arose. Eventually, the war was resolved by the rise to power of Psammeticus in 670 BC, the ruler of Sais (one of the 12 kingdoms), who conquered the rest and forged them back into a single monarchy. His son, Pharoah Necho, soon established himself as the "cruel lord" with his plan to build a canal in the Suez region: "Necho (616-597), the son and successor of Psammetichus, renewed the project of Ramses-Miamun, to construct a Suez canal, and tore away 120,000 of the natives of the land from their homes, sending them to wear out their lives in forced labour of the most wearisome kind. A revolt on the part of the native troops, who had been sent against the rising Cyrene, and driven back into the desert, led to the overthrow of Hophra, the grandson of Necho (570), and put an end to the hateful government of the family of Psammetichus." - Keil and Delitzsch Commentary.

Yet, in this prophecy concerning Egypt which came to pass in the early 7th century BC, it is described as a coming of the Lord upon the clouds.

The word of the LORD that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem. Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple. For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth. And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof.
(Micah 1:1-6)

Here, doom is prophesied against both Samaria and Jerusalem. Samaria was destroyed by Assyria in 722 BC (I believe, I might be off by a year or so), and Jerusalem later in the 600s by Babylon. Yet, the prophesied destruction of the two cities is described as the Lord "coming out of His place... coming down to earth... treading upon the mountains... which will be melted..."

In other words, the concept of the Lord "coming" is clearly used in the Old Testament as a descriptive term for God visiting , usually in judgment against nations and cities. The point being, there is clearly more than one "coming of the Lord".

[Esaias]

And here is NEW TESTAMENT PROOF OF THE POINT:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now for some New Testament examples:

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Revelation 2:1-5)

Here, a threatened "coming of the Lord" is clearly a reference to a visitation of judgment against a church caught up in errors and backsliding. It is not that the second coming would take place, but that the Lord would "come" and remove the church from it's position as one of His churches. Again, the "coming of the Lord" is a term or concept referencing a visitation in judgment.

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
(Revelation 2:12-16)

Again, we see the same thing: a wayward church that refused to repent would suffer a "coming of the Lord" in judgment. Notice, that in these two New Testament examples, the predicted comings of the Lord are CONDITIONAL. They are conditioned upon the spiritual condition of the respective churches, whether they would repent or not.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(Revelation 3:1-3)

Again, a conditional, threatened "coming of the Lord", this time with "thief in the night" language.

So far, we have seen no less than three "comings of the Lord" in the Old Testament, and another three just in the book of Revelation alone. In each of these cases, the coming of the Lord was a prophetic, descriptive term for a visitation of Divine judgment upon nations or churches or the unrepentant ones within certain churches.

But the coming of the Lord is not limited to instances of Divine judgment or punishment, as in this Old Testament prophecy:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(Malachi 3:1-6)

Here, the arrival of Christ is prophesied as a coming of the Lord, indeed as a coming that involved judgment. But not in the execution of punishment! He was to come near in judgment and be a WITNESS against sin and sinners. We know that when Christ came, He came and bore witness of the truth against the ungodliness of the world, yet He did not come to execute vengeance upon them, but to save them from their sins. So here we see a coming of the Lord that, while it includes the idea of judgment, it is focused on MERCY. It is the arrival of the King. Once He arrives, and bears witness against sin, then (having been established as King and "the messenger of the covenant") He is able to execute judgment against His enemies.

[Esaias]

And to clinch the deal:

Originally Posted by Esaias

One more New Testament prophecy concerning the coming of the Lord:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
(John 14:1-23)

Make sure you read the whole passage to get the fuller understanding. Jesus is saying He is going away, but will come again. He clarifies this by declaring He would not leave them "comfortless", but would "come" to them. He just got done talking about the Comforter (the Holy Ghost). So then He would "come unto them" via the Holy Ghost. In fact, he declares that those who keep His words will be loved by Him and the Father, and both of them would "come" and dwell with His followers.

Now, this is clearly speaking about the Lord "coming". It is a "coming of the Lord", but not the "second advent". It is also not the "comings" we have seen earlier, either. This coming is not a coming to execute judgment. It is a coming to bring "comfort" and prevent the disciples from being orphans or "fatherless" (the meaning of the term "comfortless" according to the Greek). This obviously was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter 2, but it continues to occur whenever a believer loves Jesus and keeps His words, receives the Holy Ghost, and abides in Christ. the Lord is said to "come" to such a one, indeed the Father Himself is said to come to such a one. Meaning of course that such a person receives a "coming of the Lord" that brings the fullness of God Himself into their life, for "he who has the Son has the Father also".

So, the idea of the "coming of the Lord" has several meanings according to the Bible. It can be a temporal judgment executed against a nation or city, it can be a judgment executed against a church or the wayward members of a church, or it can be a visitation in mercy of the Spirit of Christ to those who follow Him and believe in Him. None of these comings of the Lord involve what is commonly known as the "second coming". And none of these comings we have looked at involve the AD 70 destruction of Jerusalem, either!

Was the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 a "coming of the Lord"? Sure it was. Will the return of Jesus to resurrect the saints and destroy the man of sin be a "coming of the Lord"? Certainly. But, as we have seen, the term "coming of the Lord" is not a term that always and only refers to one event. Rather, it refers to a type of event. Several types of events, in fact.

[Esaias]

And this why I cannot buy what futurism is selling, because the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of futurists literally have no idea what they are talking about, they seem clueless when it comes to having any kind of rational framework within which to interpret prophecy. The general scenario they present is simply not present in the Bible, and more importantly becomes a clearly obvious IMPOSSIBILITY to anyone who actually is familiar with prophecy and how THE BIBLE ITSELF uses and explains its own prophecies.

I simply cannot take a first year ESL student seriously when they try to school me on advanced English poetics, grammar, or rhetoric.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And to clinch the deal:

[Michael The Disciple]

That's my point, which you missed. YOU have imported a man made interpretation through which you read the NT, exactly like trinitarians do. Instead of allowing the whole Bible to TELL YOU what the terms and phrases mean.

You never read what I typed. I typed what "day of the Lord" and "day of Christ" meant as defined by Paul in EIGHT occurences.

For the benefit of anyone who missed them. All these verses are concerning the coming of Jesus for his saints. Some also refer to his judgment against the wicked at his coming.


1 Cor. 1:7

7So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pauls point here is the day of the LORD Jesus Christ. The day when he will come for the saints.

2 Cor. 1:13-4

13For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; 14As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Again he points the Corinthians to "the end" which to him is the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS.

So to Paul the day of the Lord means both "the end" of the present age or "order" and the coming of Jesus.

Philippians 1:6

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Phil. 1:9-10

9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;

Phil. 2:16

16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

Three times Paul mentions the "day of Christ" as the day of HIS COMING for the saints just to this one Church at Philippi. If you mentioned the day of the Lord to those disciples TO THEM you would have been talking about the time when Jesus was coming FOR THEM!

But....is Paul done yet teaching about the coming day of the Lord Jesus?

To the Thessalonians he writes:

1 Thess 4:15-17

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul here describes the personal coming of Jesus to receive his people to himself. The event in our time commonly called the rapture. What some fail to see is that Paul just TWO VERSES LATER calls this the DAY OF THE LORD!

1 Thess 5:1-3



1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

So the apostle Paul did NOT separate the day of the Lord from the coming judgment. He packages them together. The day of the Lord TO HIM being that which he just described TWO VERSES EARLIER.....even the coming of Christ for the saints and judgment on those who were sleeping spiritually.

Part 2 Paul and the day of the Lord.

Let us refresh our memory. Jesus is BOTH Lord and Christ.

Acts 2:36

36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Now Paul writes again to the saints in Thessalonica.

2 Thess 1:7-

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Here Paul comforts the saints reminding them there is a day coming when they will find rest from their persecutions and tribulations. A day in which also wicked people will be judged.

Exactly THREE VERSES LATER he continues his message concerning THAT DAY.

2 Thess 2:1-

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul specifies the day he refers to as the DAY OF CHRIST. Now some versions of scripture remove the word Christ and replace it with LORD.

In context it makes no difference at all. Jesus is BOTH Lord and Christ! See Acts 2:36

To Paul there was no confusion about the day of the Lord and its meaning. He refers to it EIGHT TIMES at least in his writings with the understanding that it is the day when Jesus is revealed/comes from Heaven and gathers his people to himself.

He continues.

Verses 3-5

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

If some go off at the phrase "day of the Lord" it is because they are not applying it like the apostle applied it.

Paul was laser focused on its meaning. It meant the day when Jesus comes......along with.....judgment to the nations.

Modern readers "go off " IMO when they dont allow the APOSTLES of Christ to teach THEIR UNDERSTANDING (given by Jesus Acts 1:3) of the day of the Lord.

End of part 2

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You never read what I typed. I typed what "day of the Lord" and "day of Christ" meant as defined by Paul in EIGHT occurences.

The problem is, we are discussing Peter's use of the term along with his clear contextual references (including to Psalm 50, which I pointed out).

[Michael The Disciple]

Esais

Here, doom is prophesied against both Samaria and Jerusalem. Samaria was destroyed by Assyria in 722 BC (I believe, I might be off by a year or so), and Jerusalem later in the 600s by Babylon. Yet, the prophesied destruction of the two cities is described as the Lord "coming out of His place... coming down to earth... treading upon the mountains... which

will be melted..."

In other words, the concept of the Lord "coming" is clearly used in the Old Testament as a descriptive term for God visiting , usually in judgment against nations and cities. The point being, there is clearly more than one "coming of the Lord".

I understand there were comings of the Lord in judgment. Of course. What I am contending for is that Jesus had something in mind specifically when he taught the apostles about his coming FOR THEM..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Now for some New Testament examples:

Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(Revelation 2:1-5)

Here, a threatened "coming of the Lord" is clearly a reference to a visitation of judgment against a church caught up in errors and backsliding. It is not that the second coming would take place, but that the Lord would "come" and remove the church from it's position as one of His churches. Again, the "coming of the Lord" is a term or concept referencing a visitation in judgment.

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
(Revelation 2:12-16)

Again, we see the same thing: a wayward church that refused to repent would suffer a "coming of the Lord" in judgment. Notice, that in these two New Testament examples, the predicted comings of the Lord are CONDITIONAL. They are conditioned upon the spiritual condition of the respective churches, whether they would repent or not.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(Revelation 3:1-3)

Again, a conditional, threatened "coming of the Lord", this time with "thief in the night" language.

Two examples you gave could be used that way. Christ as the head of the Church can remove a candlestick or fight against those sinning in the Church in the sense you are saying.

In Sardis it seems there not watching is much like the other clear verses were Christ warns of his coming for his people and says it will be like a thief.

Paul clearly ties the coming of Jesus FOR HIS PEOPLE with him coming like a thief.

1 Thess 4:

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Two verses later he says the COMING OF JESUS that he had just described would be like a thief in the night. The coming where he will EVER BE WITH HIS PEOPLE.

1 Thess 5:1-4

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This interpretation seems to fit more in line with the Church in Sardis.

But hey WE COULD.....as many seem to want to do, hyper spiritualize away the coming of Jesus for his people ALTOGETHER!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The problem is, we are discussing Peter's use of the term along with his clear contextual references (including to Psalm 50, which I pointed out).

The problem seems to be you dont think Paul and Peter are referring to the SAME EVENT when both of them write of the day of the Lord coming like a thief.

What do we have? Two apostles of Jesus teaching two differing things? Or could it be they both are relaying to us what Jesus taught them?

The Old Testament is full of great truths. Jesus ordained apostles to teach us these things. If we follow THEIR UNDERSTANDING of these great truths we will do well.

The things you are pointing out about "comings of the Lord in judgment"are well taken on my end. My contention is that if we allow Jesus and the apostles to direct our thinking about the topic of the "day of the Lord" we wont be led astray.

Jesus knew the Old Testament perfectly, being it's author.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And this why I cannot buy what futurism is selling, because the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of futurists literally have no idea what they are talking about, they seem clueless when it comes to having any kind of rational framework within which to interpret prophecy. The general scenario they present is simply not present in the Bible, and more importantly becomes a clearly obvious IMPOSSIBILITY to anyone who actually is familiar with prophecy and how THE BIBLE ITSELF uses and explains its own prophecies.

I simply cannot take a first year ESL student seriously when they try to school me on advanced English poetics, grammar, or rhetoric.

OK then make it simple for me. Is Jesus Christ going to EVER literally and personally come down from Heaven and gather a literal Church to be with him? If so will it take place IN THE FUTURE?

Or has it already occured, meaning it is in the past?