Gen 3:22, Who are the US here?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

Yes I agree, God created (quote) 'all alone' and 'by myself' (Isaiah 44:24), so God did not create together with the angels. However, the New Testament throws more light upon Genesis 1:26, in that at Hebrews 1:2 and Colossians 1:16-17 re verse 13, we read that the Son created and at Job 33:4 the Holy Spirit is also our creator. So the answer is simply this; that the plural pronoun 'us' at Genesis 1:26 refers to the Father, to the Son and also to the Holy Spirit who are our creator.

One person is speaking for He says "by MYself" so this excludes other persons.

Angels were present and though they did not create they were present and share the same image that man was also made in most likely. If you had bother to ready my previous posts this would be evident.

Second the bible does not say God MADE alone. The Hebrew word for made does not mean the same thing for create. Again if you had bothered to read up till here this would be already known to you.

Third if three different individuals created we'd have creators plural, and images plural and we would not have in the next verse singular A "God made man after HIS own image etc etc"

The best solution is that God was addressing the angels who were present and being spirits and moral beings who can make choices, they do had a similiar image to God after which God made man in .

[KwaiQ]

I think the best theory out there for the plural passages is God is composed of many, many attributes which cannot be separated from him, yet are identifiable to us.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by KwaiQ

I think the best theory out there for the plural passages is God is composed of many, many attributes which cannot be separated from him, yet are identifiable to us.

Then why say "Let us make man after our singlar image and after our singular likeness"?

Who was God talking to? His attributes?

No I think the most logical answer is he was addressing other beings who already existed at the time and shared a similiar likeness

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Third if three different individuals created we'd have creators plural, and images plural and we would not have in the next verse singular A "God made man after HIS own image etc etc"
.

'Let US (a Plural) make man in OUR image after OUR likeness' (Genesis 1:26). So God does use a plural doesn't he.

Originally Posted by Chan

That's the point some here (along with a great many trinitarians) keep missing: the angels need not have actually participated in the work of creating in order for God to have been speaking to them in Genesis 1:26.

Chan the pronoun 'us' at genesis 1:26 obviously DOES refer to the act of creation; 'let US make man in our image after OUR likeness' can't refer to the passive act of listening. Whomsever is being addressed at this verse CREATES!!!

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bible Proof of the use of plurality of majesty in scripture:

‘The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.’ (Ezra 4:18. KJV).

This reference to the pronoun ‘us’ at Ezra 4:18 by MF can’t be a ‘plural of majesty,’ as he claims, because this letter although no doubt was sent to the King, would not have been read by him, for ancient Kings had scribes who read and dictated the King’s correspondence for him. This is confirmed at verse 23, where we read that the letter was read before others as well as before the King himself: ‘Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power.’ (Ezra 4:23, KJV). So the pronoun ‘Us’ at Ezra 4:18 is just a normal plural and isn’t a plural of majesty MF – your mistaken in your claim.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

‘The letter which ye sent unto us hath been plainly read before me.’ (Ezra 4:18. KJV).

This reference to the pronoun ‘us’ at Ezra 4:18 by MF can’t be a ‘plural of majesty,’ as he claims, because this letter although no doubt was sent to the King, would not have been read by him, for ancient Kings had scribes who read and dictated the King’s correspondence for him. This is confirmed at verse 23, where we read that the letter was read before others as well as before the King himself: ‘Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power.’ (Ezra 4:23, KJV). So the pronoun ‘Us’ at Ezra 4:18 is just a normal plural and isn’t a plural of majesty MF – your mistaken in your claim.

The letter was sent to the king, not to everyone. So even if the scribes read it, that is irrelevant. The King is replying, via a scribe, in the plural.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

'Let US (a Plural) make man in OUR image after OUR likeness' (Genesis 1:26). So God does use a plural doesn't he.

Yes HE does. When HE, God, is referring to some OTHER beings besides HIM. What OTHER Beings are with the ONE God? Other Gods? Thanks for calling God a HE and not a THEM

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Chan

Saying that God was talking to the angels is not saying the angels created. You're reading your theology into what others write.

Are you saying God was being polite to include the angels in on His plans?
Are the angels created in the image and likeness of God also?
Hmmmm... What is this image and likeness? How would you describe it?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Are you saying God was being polite to include the angels in on His plans?
Are the angels created in the image and likeness of God also?
Hmmmm... What is this image and likeness? How would you describe it?

How about the way Jason did it? I already started off with that. Everyone keeps saying they read it, but then they ask me questions answered in the article or make assertions like this position means angels created when the quotes and posts by myself and Chan NEVER assert angels created and in fact deny it...

The only beings created at this point were the angels, so it seems best to understand angels to be the recipients of God's address. The Jews have always believed that angels were the ones being adressed by God in these verses. We know that the angels were present at creation (Job 38:4, 7), so it is very possible that God was speaking to them. He addressed the angels in a courteous manner, acknowledging that they too had an image like His. God created man in the image of Himself, an image shared by the angels also.


Two objections might occur at this point: 1. How could angels be said to have an image or likeness to God?; 2. How could angels help God create man?



In response to the first objection, it seems best to see the "image" in which man was created to be one of moral, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional qualities rather than any physical qualities or similarities. God and angels both possess all of these attributes that men have. Sometimes we view angels as android beings created by God that have no choice but to serve Him in holiness and righteousness, being emotionless, and have no way of thinking for themselves. This is an unbiblical view. Peter said angels are interested in the activities of the church when he said concerning the gospel being preached with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven, "which things the angels desire to look into" (I Peter 1:12). We see from this verse that angels do have a will of their own by the fact that they desire to look into these things. God does not command them to do this, but they have a desire to do so. This indicates that angels have an emotional spectrum and intellectual independence. They have spiritual qualities in that they worship God and moral qualities in that they choose to stay pure.4

Regarding the second objection, angels did not participate in any way with the creation of man, but they did participate in some way in the making of man. The Hebrew word translated "make" in Genesis 1:26 is asah. The Hebrew word meaning "create" is bara. Angels do not have the power to create anything, but might have shared in the making of man from the dust of the ground. Vine's comparison and contrast of the two Hebrew words is helpful here:

In <Gen. 1:26-27>...`asah must mean creation from nothing, since it is used as a synonym for bara'. The text reads, "Let us make [`asah] man in our image, after our likeness.... So God created [bara'] man in his own image...." Similarly, <Gen. 2:4> states: "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created [bara'], in the day that the Lord God made [`asah] the earth and the heavens." Finally, <Gen. 5:1> equates the two as follows: "In the day that God created [bara'] man, in the likeness of God made [`asah] he him." The unusual juxtaposition of bara' and `asah in <Gen. 2:3> refers to the totality of creation, which God had "created" by "making."
It is unwarranted to overly refine the meaning of `asah to suggest that it means creation from something, as opposed to creation from nothing. Only context can determine its special nuance. It can mean either, depending upon the situation.5

That the creation consisted of creating and making can be seen in Genesis 2:3-4: "And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created [bara] and made [asah]. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created [bara], in the day that the LORD God made [asah] the earth and the heavens." The TWOT is also helpful here.

The significant interchange between the words bara "create" and asah is of great interest. The word bara carries the thought of the initiation of the object involved. It always connotes what only God can do and frequently emphasizes the absolute newness of the object created. The word asah is much broader in scope, connoting primarily the fashioning of the object with little concern for special nuances.
The use of bara in the opening statement of the account of creation seems to carry the implication that the physical phenomena came into existence at that time and had no previous existence in the form in which they were created by divine flat. The use of asah may simply connote the act of fashioning the objects involved in the whole creative process.
The word asah is also used elsewhere in Scripture to describe aspects of the creative work of God (Psa 86:9; Psa 95:5; Psa 96:5).6

It might be best to understand the creation of man in a two-fold manner. He was both made and created. He was made (asah) in that his body came from the dust of the ground (earth). The earth was already created by God, so Adam was made from a substance which was already created. He might be said to have been created (bara) in that "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and He [Adam] became a living soul" (Genesis 2:7). The life invested into the body was a creation of God; a creation which the angels could not participate in.


Because angels could not actually create man, it might be wondered why God even bothered speaking to them concerning man. The reason might be two-fold. First of all, God might have addressed them in a courteous manner because of their intimate presence at this amazing time. Secondly, He addressed them to declare His intentions of making man in their image as well as His: a moral, spiritual, intellectual, and emotional image. After God allowed the angels to participate in the making of man, He created in him a living soul which possessed this image of God and of the angels.

The angels participation in the making of man might be compared to the manner in which believers work miracles. Jesus said, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give" (Matthew 10:8). This does not mean that we have the power in and of ourselves to work miracles, even though Jesus spoke these things in the imperative as though it was our responsibility to see that they come about. Although we are to do these things, we do them by relying on the power and will of God. Just as we do not actually work miracles apart from God, neither could the angels actually make man apart from the power and will of God.


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There are two issues, 1 They were present at the creation of man and shared a similiar image so God addressed them including them in His plans. 2 Though not necessary, it is possible that angels participated in the MAKING of man but not in the creation of man. Had anyone really read this quote and my subsequent explanations the differences between create and make would already be known.