BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Bro Chris, I have seen you reference OT law to support social values.

Don't you think that there is a difference between the ethical laws of the OT, and the ceremonial laws, such as circumcision and animal sacrifices.

Jesus said he did not come to do away with the law, but the Holy Spirit would write the law in our hearts.

So, unless the law has been replaced, ie, baptism is now spiritual circumcision, and the blood of Jesus is now for the remission of sins instead of the blood of bulls and goats, OT ethics are still applicable.

(by the way, for the sake of this thread, I am going to attempt to argue from the perspective of the book as a learning exercise)

The moral law stands forever anything God hates or dislikes or is a abomination to Him, or says is unholy to Him stands forever. Why? Because as Malachi 3:6 says "For I am the Lord, I change not." And as Psalms 33:11 says "The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever,
the thoughts of his heart to all generations." Lastly what the New Testament scripture says in Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Anything else said comes from the philosophy of man, and definetely not from the Word of God. In saying different they are saying openly that God is a liar, and the scripture says plainly that "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie." And it also says "God is not a man, that he should lie;
neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it?
or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" So I say "Let God be true, yet every man be a liar". Just because people may have taught this hogwash all our lives, doesn't mean they go that out of the Bible. Most of that thinking comes from some Denominal theology which we wouldn't follow in the first place! Or at least any self respecting Apostolic wouldn't. Some only will go with it, because it fits their personal agenda. Truthfully they are caught up in the cult of Loophole theology though anyway... (Not you Sis, just saying this in general. As we say where I come from, "i'm talking to Texas if the shoe fits then wear it.)

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The moral law stands forever anything God hates or dislikes or is a abomination to Him, or says is unholy to Him stands forever. Why? Because as Malachi 3:6 says "For I am the Lord, I change not." And as Psalms 33:11 says "The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever,
the thoughts of his heart to all generations." Lastly what the New Testament scripture says in Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Anything else said comes from the philosophy of man, and definetely not from the Word of God. In saying different they are saying openly that God is a liar, and the scripture says plainly that "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie." And it also says "God is not a man, that he should lie;
neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it?
or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" So I say "Let God be true, yet every man be a liar". Just because people may have taught this hogwash all our lives, doesn't mean they go that out of the Bible. Most of that thinking comes from some Denominal theology which we wouldn't follow in the first place! Or at least any self respecting Apostolic wouldn't. Some only will go with it, because it fits their personal agenda. Truthfully they are caught up in the cult of Loophole theology though anyway... (Not you Sis, just saying this in general. As we say where I come from, "i'm talking to Texas if the shoe fits then wear it.)

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The moral law stands forever anything God hates or dislikes or is a abomination to Him, or says is unholy to Him stands forever. Why? Because as Malachi 3:6 says "For I am the Lord, I change not." And as Psalms 33:11 says "The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever,
the thoughts of his heart to all generations." Lastly what the New Testament scripture says in Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Anything else said comes from the philosophy of man, and definetely not from the Word of God. In saying different they are saying openly that God is a liar, and the scripture says plainly that "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie." And it also says "God is not a man, that he should lie;
neither the son of man, that he should repent:
hath he said, and shall he not do it?
or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" So I say "Let God be true, yet every man be a liar". Just because people may have taught this hogwash all our lives, doesn't mean they go that out of the Bible. Most of that thinking comes from some Denominal theology which we wouldn't follow in the first place! Or at least any self respecting Apostolic wouldn't. Some only will go with it, because it fits their personal agenda. Truthfully they are caught up in the cult of Loophole theology though anyway... (Not you Sis, just saying this in general. As we say where I come from, "i'm talking to Texas if the shoe fits then wear it.)

Except that there are many instances where God changed his mind.

God showed mercy to the Ninevites.

God repented that He had made man.

God repented of the evil that he thought to do unto His people.

God changed from the Old Covenant to the New.


God doesn't change, but He does change His mind, and He does change how He interacts with His people.

According to you, He even changed what He required for His Holy tithe! Although I believe scripture is pretty thin to support that He ever changed His mind about what was to be tithed. However, YOU believe that he changed concerning what was to be tithed, who was to be tithed to, and what the tithe was to be used for . . .


among other things.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Except that there are many instances where God changed his mind.

God showed mercy to the Ninevites.

God repented that He had made man.

God repented of the evil that he thought to do unto His people.

God changed from the Old Covenant to the New.


God doesn't change, but He does change His mind, and He does change how He interacts with His people.

According to you, He even changed what He required for His Holy tithe! Although I believe scripture is pretty thin to support that He ever changed His mind about what was to be tithed. However, YOU believe that he changed concerning what was to be tithed, who was to be tithed to, and what the tithe was to be used for . . .


among other things.

It was the same throughout. God didn't change. It's all 1 and the same types and shadows to anti types.

God Himself is "immutable"if your saying He's not, well I could either believe you or the Bible... This God changed from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant statement you made makes a lot of sense, considering your beliefs. But guess what that wasn't a change we just see the anti type in of that type in this covenant. This was what was intended by all of it from the beginning. Since Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In Exodus this was His original plan anyway "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." That was God's original plan but they wouldn't do it,. So we see in the next chapter where they wouldn't follow that pattern in Exodus 20:18-19 "And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. [19] And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die."

So this had nothing to do with God changing. It took Him coming as a man robed in flesh, dying on the cross, ressurecting the 3 day, and the Holy Ghost to be poired out on all flesh after the day of Pentecost for man to fit in His plan. As we see in 1 Peter 2:9-10 where the man with the keys proclaims forth "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [10] Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." We see His original plan had come to fruition at this time. We can read aboi can read about it, although that doesn't mean He changed !

Don't believe me? That's what's really being said in Hebrews 7:9-11 "And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. [10] For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. [11] If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?" We see that a change came but God's origina plan was always that from the text.

Gods moral law is immutable just as He is. If homosexuality was abominable to Him then today He's not homosexual tolerant. If something was holy to Him then, and was robbery unto Him then, still is. I want to know what is considered robbing God and never do it. Beware of this ""Therefore, whosoever breaks one of these least commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven"" Matthew 5:17-19. The Bible clearly said He is immutable, its best to trust in that while He can relent and give mercy we should never plan on His mercy to excuse our ignorance or willfull rebellion.

Have a blessed day!

[Tithesmeister]

[QUOTE=1ofthechosen;1546924]It was the same throughout. God didn't change. It's all 1 and the same types and shadows to anti types.

God Himself is "immutable"

True, God is immutable. But He changes His mind according to how we behave.

Gen.6
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

There is a difference in God never changing, and God never changing His mind. Are you implying that there is such a thing as repentance without change?

[Aquila]

God isn't a mindless computer.

God's nature never changes. However, in Scripture we see that God has changed His mind on occasion, established multiple covenants with various individuals and bodies of people with varying principles, and reserves the right to do so as a sovereign God.

For example, unto Noah and his family, God states:

Genesis 9:3
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

However, we see dietary regulations in the Mosaic Covenant.

God didn't change. His manner of dealing with man changed, specifically with relation to the Law as provided to Israel.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The moral law stands forever , , ,

I'm going to ask you to say it in your own words. Answer some questions for me about what you believe. Okay?

Did you say that the tithe was part of the moral law?

Wasn't it your deduction that this justified the pastor requesting tithes?

If the tithe is part of the moral law, and the moral law stands forever, would the tithe not be what God commanded it to be?

Wouldn't changing what is tithed, and to whom tithe is rendered and whether or not it is eaten (the tithe that was holy unto the LORD was commanded to be eaten, which would be part of the same moral law, right?), be changes to the moral law that stands forever?

Why would this position not be hypocrisy?

Sincerely. In your own words. Please, because I'm having a hard time understanding your stated beliefs and reconcilling them with your behavior.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I'm going to ask you to say it in your own words. Answer some questions for me about what you believe. Okay?

Did you say that the tithe was part of the moral law?

Wasn't it your deduction that this justified the pastor requesting tithes?

If the tithe is part of the moral law, and the moral law stands forever, would the tithe not be what God commanded it to be?

Wouldn't changing what is tithed, and to whom tithe is rendered and whether or not it is eaten (the tithe that was holy unto the LORD was commanded to be eaten, which would be part of the same moral law, right?), be changes to the moral law that stands forever?

Why would this position not be hypocrisy?

Sincerely. In your own words. Please, because I'm having a hard time understanding your stated beliefs and reconcilling them with your behavior.

The tithe was part of the ceremonial Law. But it's also the moral law considering the Lord our God said "the tenth was holy unto Himself." Do to the way life has changed I can't tithe of cattle, or produce. But I do have first fruits every 2 weeks. So, I do that in faith. No one has ever told me to do it, but they have said what the scripture said which I already know that.

Tithes in the old Testament was only a type of the tithes to be given this day. In that It was said to be holy unto the Lord, so your increase and the tenth there of is forever holy unto the Lord. You are to give tithes and offerings not giving either, is robbing the Lord thy God. We owe Him for everything anyway, it's all His even the cattle on 10,000 hills.

The Levitical priesthood was only a foreshadowing of the 5 fold ministry to come. It still goes to the same people, in that antitype of the original type that was given. I know you want to talk about tithes and offerings, because that's the most important thing in the world to you. But, it's very simple you just have made things difficult. Do it if you want to, and don't do it if you want to.

I got a question for you "does your church family share the same outlook on this as you do?"

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

God isn't a mindless computer.

God's nature never changes. However, in Scripture we see that God has changed His mind on occasion, established multiple covenants with various individuals and bodies of people with varying principles, and reserves the right to do so as a sovereign God.

For example, unto Noah and his family, God states:

Genesis 9:3
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

However, we see dietary regulations in the Mosaic Covenant.

God didn't change. His manner of dealing with man changed, specifically with relation to the Law as provided to Israel.

None of the dietary regulations were part of the moral law. There is a huge difference in between what God say's "should be a abomination unto you", and what He says "is a abomination unto Him". All of the law was only a type and a shadow of things to come. The Bible says "the law was a school master to lead us to Christ." That means that's only a type of what was to come.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The tithe was part of the ceremonial Law. But it's also the moral law considering the Lord our God said "the tenth was holy unto Himself." Do to the way life has changed I can't tithe of cattle, or produce. But I do have first fruits every 2 weeks. So, I do that in faith. No one has ever told me to do it, but they have said what the scripture said which I already know that.

Tithes in the old Testament was only a type of the tithes to be given this day. In that It was said to be holy unto the Lord, so your increase and the tenth there of is forever holy unto the Lord. You are to give tithes and offerings not giving either, is robbing the Lord thy God. We owe Him for everything anyway, it's all His even the cattle on 10,000 hills.

The Levitical priesthood was only a foreshadowing of the 5 fold ministry to come. It still goes to the same people, in that antitype of the original type that was given. I know you want to talk about tithes and offerings, because that's the most important thing in the world to you. But, it's very simple you just have made things difficult. Do it if you want to, and don't do it if you want to.

I got a question for you "does your church family share the same outlook on this as you do?"

Why do you think God didn't just make the tithe money then?

What were the first fruits in the Bible, versus now?

Do you have any scripture or prophecy indicating that the tithe and first fruits were a type of a later tithe/firstfruits? For instance Peter referred to the eight who were saved by water and compared it to us being baptized.

Were there any people in the Bible that could not render tithes in agricultural products (similar to your situation), and were they allowed to render the tithe in money? or was it concluded that they simply did not tithe?

Did the apostolic church of the NT tithe to the NT church?

In answer to your question the answer would generally be no.