Billy Graham

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Good grief!

Cultural Marxism scores another goal.

Bro, you aren’t sure if you are teaching Biblical salvation? Mother Teresa, Billy Graham and Pope John Paul II are in glory? Christianity the great gamble???? You really aren’t thinking this through, because Jesus didn’t agree with what you are proposing. He said the way is narrow and the gate is tight. A small number will find the entrance. Period. Jesus name baptism and speaking in tongues isn’t an option. Billy Graham is smoked.

Is it possible for someone to love Jesus with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and yet not agree with your personal understanding of Acts 2:38 & John 3:5?

[Aquila]

The Bible is infallible. Our interpretations and understanding of it are not.

For this reason, I believe we should allow God to be God. Leave it to God to determine the final outcome of those Christians who do not embrace the Apostolic doctrine as we do. For He alone is sovereign. He has the power and authority to have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. This doesn't weaken the Apostolic message. Instead, it affirms God's power and authority. It elevates Him above being a lap dog whom we expect to bark in accordance to our human interpretations of Scripture.

Did Billy Graham make it? I don't know. What I do know is that Graham didn't embrace Apostolic doctrine. Therefore, apart from God choosing to have mercy, Billy Graham isn't in Heaven.

Do I pray that God had mercy on Billy? Yes. I am not ashamed to say that I took a moment and prayed that God have mercy on Billy Graham. Will God have mercy? That is entirely up to God. And God is worthy of our praise and worship no matter what God chooses to do with a human soul. For His judgments are always righteous, just, and in accordance to His loving and holy nature.

[Aquila]

Many Christians aren't familiar with a first century saint named, Onesiphorus. Onesiphorus was a beloved saint who had received the Gospel in Ephesus, the church founded by Paul during Paul's third missionary journey. The only things we know about this man from Scripture is that he risked his own neck to visit Paul in prison, and often he refreshed Paul's soul. The only two times this beloved saint is mentioned is in 2 Timothy. What has caught the eye of many is how Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in the past tense and makes no reference of future plans for meeting or fellowship. In addition, Paul appears to pray for the family of Onesiphorus, that God might have mercy upon them. Based on these context clues many commentators believe that Onesiphorus had died or was martyred. According to ancient Christian tradition, Onesiphorus went to Spain in the footsteps of St. Paul and then suffered martyrdom on the Hellespont, under Emperor Domitian with Porphyrius. Here is what Paul writes with regards to Onesiphorus:

2 Timothy 1:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Paul appears to pray for the family of Onesiphorus, that God might have mercy upon them. No doubt, that they might be protected and comforted in their time of loss. In addition, Paul prays that God grant unto Onesiphorus that he might find the mercy of the Lord in the day of judgment.

Now, if Paul didn't believe that such a prayer was inappropriate, why do we?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Is it possible for someone to love Jesus with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and yet not agree with your personal understanding of Acts 2:38 & John 3:5?

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Is it possible for someone to love Jesus with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and yet not agree with your personal understanding of Acts 2:38 & John 3:5?

It seems like we just don't get it. this isn't about you or I having our own personal Jesus, or petty opinions. There is only one truth. If you or I don't have it, then tough luck. We better find it but skippy. We must acknowledge that Christianity in this country is shot in the head. It is like the First Church of NPR. It's like they all attend church in togas and burn incense. Who are these so called Christians who love Jesus with all their heart soul and strength but never take the time and effort to read the book they are supposed to follow? Understanding of two verses? Just two verses? Acts 2:38, and John 3:16? the Bible is wholistic not taken in pieces to suit our needs. The problem is when we take our emotions and secular herd mentality we attempt to be Nicer than Jesus. We fail miserably. My old grandmother was a prayer warrior, prayed the rosary, went to mass every morning, confession, kept the feast days, and supposedly loved Jesus with all her heart and soul? Bro, she had opportunity all around her, Bible at the ready, teachers willing to show the way. Better than that, a God who is able to make apparent that which is plain. If we don't grab at the opportunity, the it's our fault.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Many Christians aren't familiar with a first century saint named, Onesiphorus. Onesiphorus was a beloved saint who had received the Gospel in Ephesus, the church founded by Paul during Paul's third missionary journey. The only things we know about this man from Scripture is that he risked his own neck to visit Paul in prison, and often he refreshed Paul's soul. The only two times this beloved saint is mentioned is in 2 Timothy. What has caught the eye of many is how Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in the past tense and makes no reference of future plans for meeting or fellowship. In addition, Paul appears to pray for the family of Onesiphorus, that God might have mercy upon them. Based on these context clues many commentators believe that Onesiphorus had died or was martyred. According to ancient Christian tradition, Onesiphorus went to Spain in the footsteps of St. Paul and then suffered martyrdom on the Hellespont, under Emperor Domitian with Porphyrius. Here is what Paul writes with regards to Onesiphorus:

2 Timothy 1:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Paul appears to pray for the family of Onesiphorus, that God might have mercy upon them. No doubt, that they might be protected and comforted in their time of loss. In addition, Paul prays that God grant unto Onesiphorus that he might find the mercy of the Lord in the day of judgment.

Now, if Paul didn't believe that such a prayer was inappropriate, why do we?

Onesiphorus was an Apostolic like Paul. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus find mercy at judgement. Not because Onesiphorus was a Baptist or Greek Orthodox. Listen this is simple logic, Jesus explicitly stated that there were those who did wonderful miracles in His name, who would be cast out. Jesus said that the road to eternal life is hard to navigate, and the entrance tight, and a small number will find how to enter. I'm real sorry brothers, but the Puritans and Calvinists who first colonized this country have infected every Christian group which came after them. Even the Roman Catholic Church while retaining its doctrine of free will, believes that if you were a good "Christian" you may just get a pass. Apostolic soteriology isn't shaking the preacher's hand and getting some literature. It is to do as the Apostles.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The Bible is infallible. Our interpretations and understanding of it are not.

For this reason, I believe we should allow God to be God. Leave it to God to determine the final outcome of those Christians who do not embrace the Apostolic doctrine as we do. For He alone is sovereign. He has the power and authority to have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. This doesn't weaken the Apostolic message. Instead, it affirms God's power and authority. It elevates Him above being a lap dog whom we expect to bark in accordance to our human interpretations of Scripture.

Hence the reason why individuals like my old pap, believed that Christians (or any religion) was delusional. It's like this 2+2 = 4, not 2,345. Or 5, or 1. You might get away your entire life not knowing math or even knowing how to read. You may of even convinced yourself that math or reading wasn't important. We even meet others who are illiterate, and we start to get comfortable. Even those who know math even give a pass to those who don't. Now we end up with a world view which is extremely skewed.
The Bible doesn't have 52 different views, that is because of a plethora of reasons you come up with bad addition. That isn't God's fault, He has been trying to teach you simple math. Yet, through arrogance, pride, and dramatic emotions we disregard God's call.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Did Billy Graham make it? I don't know. What I do know is that Graham didn't embrace Apostolic doctrine. Therefore, apart from God choosing to have mercy, Billy Graham isn't in Heaven.

Yet, the Apostles didn't preach that we had other options. Jesus was emphatic, He said that the Way was hard to navigate, the opening was almost closed, and few would find that opening Matthew 7:13-14 . Seriously?

I'm going to circumvent all that, because I want my Catholic grandmother or Jewish aunt to make it to glory by default? Here is my brother's Apostolic Abuelita praying on her knees, reading a studying her Bible, witnessing in Colombia.
She did the same things as my Roman Catholic MeeMaw. Yet, when they both get in front of God, God lets them both in? Hey, that might work in the J. R. R. Tolkien's world of Middle Earth, but is that merciful? Where is Abuelita's mercy? How was that even fair? That salvation's final outcome wasn't even predicated on scripture, but on something totally different. Something Jesus and His apostles never even taught?

The whole thing about God all of a sudden changing the rules at the last minute is our own self deception.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do I pray that God had mercy on Billy? Yes.

Why? You looking for a ecclesiastical merit badge? Mercy on Billy Graham? My brother you have a plethora of Apostolic Pentecostals who broke their rear ends preaching, teaching, sweating it out for the Gospel. Apostolic to the bone, wearing out the tips of their shoes in a prayer room, worn out knees in suits. Walking all over the place all over the globe, trying to win souls while sucking on their wallets. Missionaries who are killing it day in and day out, sometimes living in bad conditions. Pray for them bro, pray for them. Pray for Apostolics to have mercy. Instead of some jackleg jellybean who gets prayers from you only because he is famous. Good God from Zion!

Originally Posted by Aquila

I am not ashamed to say that I took a moment and prayed that God have mercy on Billy Graham.

Your not ashamed, because it is legalism. It is being "Christian" the population around you expect you to pray for an American High Priest. Like a haircut, shave, and shoeshine can make someone "look" Churchy. So does all the piety of praying for the other team.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Will God have mercy? That is entirely up to God. And God is worthy of our praise and worship no matter what God chooses to do with a human soul. For His judgments are always righteous, just, and in accordance to His loving and holy nature.

Chris, that isn't praising Him that is accusing Him of unrighteousness. He told Balaam in Numbers 23:19 that He wasn't a liar like man, because if He said it, He would make good on what He said. You are teaching that God at the last minute and the most crucial time, changes the game. Good luck with that.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Those people you cite betrayed Paul. Again, we are not talking about people with the bad fruit like the one's you listed above displayed. We are talking about people whose fruit was that of the Holy Spirit.

They're bad fruit is that they were Judaizers. They weren't caught in adultery, or some other vice. These individuals taught doctrines that were contrary to what Jesus and Paul taught. We have NO ONE being involved in other teachings which are contrary to the teachings of Christ and His apostles getting a pass to heaven. We are actually making a doctrine based on emotions, where some super famous preacher gains entry because of his status in the community?

Originally Posted by Originalist

I will leave the tongues part to God. It indeed should be normative to the salvation experience.

I don't have to leave anything to hope and wishes. Wishing that pixies will comfort me in my hour of need, based on my emotions concerning pixies.

We have book, chapter, and verse that is God's blueprint. I need to build with that, not with my gut feelings.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

H

Yet, the Apostles didn't preach that we had other options. Jesus was emphatic, He said that the Way was hard to navigate, the opening was almost closed, and few would find that opening Matthew 7:13-14 . Seriously?

I'm going to circumvent all that, because I want my Catholic grandmother or Jewish aunt to make it to glory by default? Here is my brother's Apostolic Abuelita praying on her knees, reading a studying her Bible, witnessing in Colombia.

She did the same things as my Roman Catholic MeeMaw. Yet, when they both get in front of God, God lets them both in? Hey, that might work in the J. R. R. Tolkien's world of Middle Earth, but is that merciful? Where is Abuelita's mercy? How was that even fair? That salvation's final outcome wasn't even predicated on scripture, but on something totally different. Something Jesus and His apostles never even taught?

The whole thing about God all of a sudden changing the rules at the last minute is our own self deception.

[Esaias]

Billy Graham was an apostate heretic even by modern evangelical standards.

Good grief.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Many Christians aren't familiar with a first century saint named, Onesiphorus. Onesiphorus was a beloved saint who had received the Gospel in Ephesus, the church founded by Paul during Paul's third missionary journey. The only things we know about this man from Scripture is that he risked his own neck to visit Paul in prison, and often he refreshed Paul's soul. The only two times this beloved saint is mentioned is in 2 Timothy. What has caught the eye of many is how Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in the past tense and makes no reference of future plans for meeting or fellowship. In addition, Paul appears to pray for the family of Onesiphorus, that God might have mercy upon them. Based on these context clues many commentators believe that Onesiphorus had died or was martyred. According to ancient Christian tradition, Onesiphorus went to Spain in the footsteps of St. Paul and then suffered martyrdom on the Hellespont, under Emperor Domitian with Porphyrius. Here is what Paul writes with regards to Onesiphorus:

2 Timothy 1:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Paul appears to pray for the family of Onesiphorus, that God might have mercy upon them. No doubt, that they might be protected and comforted in their time of loss. In addition, Paul prays that God grant unto Onesiphorus that he might find the mercy of the Lord in the day of judgment.

Now, if Paul didn't believe that such a prayer was inappropriate, why do we?

Paul also wished he was accursed to his brethren Israel in the flesh could be saved, but a wish is something he knew could not be fulfilled. It simply showed his concern.