Question about Acts 2:38: What about the martyrs? - Page 6

mfblume · #51 07-19-2015, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servetus

Salvation has always been through faith. The thief on the cross was saved the same way we are, which was the same way Abraham was. There are not two (or more) plans of salvation.

Romans 4

What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. "Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 5:1-2 NIV

Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

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It was certainly thought faith, but it was not faith to be baptized into Jesus' death as it is since the resurrection, because Jesus had not died yet. Jesus told them to BEGIN preaching repentance and remission of sins in His name BEGINNING (not yet preached before) in Jerusalem after they were endued with the power of the Spirit form on high. Luke 24:47-49. That was not preached before the cross, not 50 days after til the day of Pentecost!

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Esaias · #52 07-19-2015, 06:36 PM

How many martyrs were hard-core catholics, believing in the priesthood, auricular confession being NECESSARY for the remission of sins, baptism being NECESSARY for salvation, membership in the holy, apostolic, ROMAN catholic church being NECESSARY for salvation?

Or how many of those martyrs were Calvinists, believing that adherence to the five point TULIP of Geneva as the only CERTAIN evidence of having been born again, believing simultaneously that non Calvinists ought to be burnt as heretics, etc etc etc?

Anyone who thinks a martyr "must be saved" is ignorant of the very concept of grace and faith. As if God somehow OWES salvation to a person because they were martyred. God doesn't OWE anyone anything except hellfire, PERIOD.

So thank God for MERCY and GRACE, and thank God for the FAITH ONCE DELIVERED TO THE SAINTS.

shazeep · #53 07-19-2015, 07:47 PM

nice. i do dislike the conception of hell as a place that God might "send" people to, since "all go to the same place," as the witch of Endor, channeling Samuel for Saul, makes clear. Despite much religious effort to portray otherwise, there is no place called Hell, nor Heaven; "You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!'" Shadrak, Meshak, and Abed-nego are a clue to this, as is the comparison to refined silver or gold--which fire does not change.

mfblume · #54 07-19-2015, 08:23 PM

The kingdom being questioned as to whether people can say here it is or there it is is not referring to the afterlife. It is the kingdom in the Spirit now.

Evang.Benincasa · #55 07-19-2015, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

The kingdom being questioned as to whether people can say here it is or there it is is not referring to the afterlife. It is the kingdom in the Spirit now.

Charnock · #56 07-19-2015, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

It was certainly thought faith, but it was not faith to be baptized into Jesus' death as it is since the resurrection, because Jesus had not died yet. Jesus told them to BEGIN preaching repentance and remission of sins in His name BEGINNING (not yet preached before) in Jerusalem after they were endued with the power of the Spirit form on high. Luke 24:47-49. That was not preached before the cross, not 50 days after til the day of Pentecost!

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Horrible theology. You really think Jesus spent three and a half years of ministry teaching faith only to change His mind a few days after resurrecting?

Faith in Messiah has ever been the only thing that justifies.

From Romans 3

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

Look closely...

25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith in a Messiah whose name was not yet revealed. New Testament saints have the benefit of His revealed name. However, Paul clearly states that everyone, in all eras, must be justified by faith.

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Esaias · #57 07-19-2015, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charnock

Horrible theology. You really think Jesus spent three and a half years of ministry teaching faith only to change His mind a few days after resurrecting?

This is a straw man. Jesus did not change his mind, nobody says he changed his mind, that I know of?

Quote:

Faith in Messiah has ever been the only thing that justifies.

One does not have faith in Christ while refusing to believe what He said, taught, and commanded. Further, one cannot have saving faith in Christ without receiving (believing and obeying) the doctrine of his apostles.

Quote:

From Romans 3

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God freely and graciously declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins.

Look closely...

25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

That is not the Word of God. Paul never said that. Not sure what mangled "scripture" you are quoting, but here's what THE HOLY BIBLE says:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Quote:

Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith in a Messiah whose name was not yet revealed. New Testament saints have the benefit of His revealed name. However, Paul clearly states that everyone, in all eras, must be justified by faith.

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Nobody, to my knowledge, is arguing that anyone is NOT justified by faith - except those arguing martyrs "must surely be saved because God would be unjust (WRONG) to not let them into heaven" without regard to their actual faith.

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