Revising Pentecostal history: 1908-1912

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The rest of US? I thought you WERE baptized in Jesus name and had received the Holy Spirit? Also it seems to me that considering the magnitude of the error taught among Trinitarians Oneness is fairly reserved in its "judgmentalism".

The rest of "us" as in those who don't make Esaias' heavenly cut. That would include both oneness and trinitarians. In particular it would include me because despite being baptized in Jesus name and having received the Holy Ghost, I don't teach all trinitarians are lost, nor that tongues is the initial evidence. Thus I'm a compromising liberal to Esaias, lost as 2 boys kissing to Steve Epley. Again, because 99% of CHRISTIANS are lost to them, and then of that 1% that would go under the umbrella of "oneness Pentecostal" some 85% are apostates (by Esaias estimate).

Are trinitarians wrong to judge? Absolutely, and granted a lot of trinitarians misunderstand what oneness people believe (sequential modalism/Sabellianism, the deity of the Son, the externality of the Son, etc). I just had a discussion this past week in the Dallas area with James White on some of these topics.

And oneness people likewise misunderstand what trinitarians believe. Trinitarians do not believe in three gods.

As for the judgmentalism, I'd say its pretty much equal on both sides, and ought not to be. There should be charity on both sides because oneness and trinity really aren't very far apart. Most of the argument is semantics and definitions. There are differences, but much more similarities.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Many Oneness are content to blast the "system" of Trinitarianism while leaving the final judgment to God.

I haven't met many of those guys. Essentially all oneness people (esp preachers) strongly believe trinitarians are lost, and quite frankly seem happy about it.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Many Trins I am around will not listen to ANYTHING I say about ANYTHING just on the basis that I believe in Oneness. They count you as heretical and nothing but a deceived false teacher.

True. That doesn't make them right for doing it, nor lost. Just confused about what oneness really is.

[Scott Pitta]

There is tons of misinformation, ignorance and confusion about the nature of God. The biggest problem is our finite mind trying to wrap our minds around the God of the universe.

Not all Trinitarians believe exactly the same thing. Not all Oneness believe exactly the same thing. There is a range of understanding. There is overlap, or common ground between both theologies.

If entrance to Heaven is based on how a person defines ousia, hypostasis and logos, then we are all in trouble.

I defer all judgment to God. I hope he will have mercy on all of us.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

The rest of "us" as in those who don't make Esaias' heavenly cut. That would include both oneness and trinitarians. In particular it would include me because despite being baptized in Jesus name and having received the Holy Ghost, I don't teach all trinitarians are lost, nor that tongues is the initial evidence. Thus I'm a compromising liberal to Esaias, lost as 2 boys kissing to Steve Epley. Again, because 99% of CHRISTIANS are lost to them, and then of that 1% that would go under the umbrella of "oneness Pentecostal" some 85% are apostates (by Esaias estimate).

Are trinitarians wrong to judge? Absolutely, and granted a lot of trinitarians misunderstand what oneness people believe (sequential modalism/Sabellianism, the deity of the Son, the externality of the Son, etc). I just had a discussion this past week in the Dallas area with James White on some of these topics.

And oneness people likewise misunderstand what trinitarians believe. Trinitarians do not believe in three gods.

As for the judgmentalism, I'd say its pretty much equal on both sides, and ought not to be. There should be charity on both sides because oneness and trinity really aren't very far apart. Most of the argument is semantics and definitions. There are differences, but much more similarities.


I haven't met many of those guys. Essentially all oneness people (esp preachers) strongly believe trinitarians are lost, and quite frankly seem happy about it.

True. That doesn't make them right for doing it, nor lost. Just confused about what oneness really is.

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

There is tons of misinformation, ignorance and confusion about the nature of God. The biggest problem is our finite mind trying to wrap our minds around the God of the universe.

Not all Trinitarians believe exactly the same thing. Not all Oneness believe exactly the same thing. There is a range of understanding. There is overlap, or common ground between both theologies.

If entrance to Heaven is based on how a person defines ousia, hypostasis and logos, then we are all in trouble.

I defer all judgment to God. I hope he will have mercy on all of us.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The rest of US? I thought you WERE baptized in Jesus name and had received the Holy Spirit? Also it seems to me that considering the magnitude of the error taught among Trinitarians Oneness is fairly reserved in its "judgmentalism".

Many Oneness are content to blast the "system" of Trinitarianism while leaving the final judgment to God.

Many Trins I am around will not listen to ANYTHING I say about ANYTHING just on the basis that I believe in Oneness. They count you as heretical and nothing but a deceived false teacher.

Just wondering what you mean by the magnitude of error taught by triniatarians. You think oneness is fairly reserved in it judgmentalism? Oneness spend more time discounting trinitarians walk with God than any group I have been a part of.
I have talked with hundreds of trinitarians, on the subject of the oneness of God and never been shut down. Because I don't come at them with a I'm right your wrong self righteous spirit, like the majority of oneness people.
You say they count you as heretical, is that not like the pot calling the kettle black? Is that not the way you view them? I think so, after all you already said the majority of their doctrine is in error.
The fact is the only doctrines that differs are the plan of salvation, and their definition of holiness.

[Esaias]

http://danielsegraves.blogspot.com/2...ntecostal.html

[Esaias]

JB, now you are carrying your slander and misrepresentation of me, my words, and my position on even further.

I guess you really aren't someone capable of a rational discussion. Seems you have a personal vendetta or something.

I NEVER said what you keep saying I said. Your ad hominems against me personally are proof you haven't a clue what you are talking about. But I'm sure it reaffirms your smug sense of superiority in all things spiritual.

Perhaps you could find another thread to trash with more personal attacks? smh

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

JB, now you are carrying your slander and misrepresentation of me, my words, and my position on even further.

I guess you really aren't someone capable of a rational discussion. Seems you have a personal vendetta or something.

I NEVER said what you keep saying I said.

So you didn't call me a liberal? And while you didn't call me a compromiser in this thread, is it wrong to assume that you believe those who teach justification by faith (and thus that trinitarians can be saved and that tongues aren't the initial evidence) are compromisers? And if all that is ok with you, then why say 85% of oneness Pentecostalism is apostate?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

JB, now you are carrying your slander and misrepresentation of me, my words, and my position on even further.

I guess you really aren't someone capable of a rational discussion. Seems you have a personal vendetta or something.

I NEVER said what you keep saying I said. Your ad hominems against me personally are proof you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

All I said was that you saw me as a comprising liberal and that you believed 85% of oneness were apostates. True, VERBATIM you didn't call me a "comprising liberal" though you did call me a liberal and I just assumed the comprising part based on everything else you post. I'm figuring if you think 85% of oneness are apostate, surely you think I am. Am I wrong?

Originally Posted by Esaias

Well so much for a simple discussion. Now the open minded liberal types have, once again, descended to personal attacks and insults and insinuations, judgmentalism, and all the rest.

And where's the personal attack? I believe you guys who are 3 step oneness are saved (just wrong on soteriology), do you believe the same about me? About trinitarians? About people who never spoke in tongues?

[LifeGuide]

Didn't the Pharisees teach us (oneness and trinitarians) anything?!?! You can observe every jot and tittle of the law and still miss Jesus! I'm oneness through and through but not at all intimidated by those of another interpretation. Don't read anything else into that statement. I am NOT a universalist. But I've been around long enough to know that there are many people I would have written off years ago that have a deep relationship with Jesus.

[Jason B]

Esaias am I misapplying your quote here? To me it seems as if you are saying the old Pentecostals would say 75-85% of Pentecost is apostate, and you seem to agree. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Anyways, reading these old pentecostal writings makes me realize that probably 75 - 85 percent of what is called pentecostal today would be rejected and denounced as delusion or apostasy by those old timers. A LOT of how we do things, doctrines, practices, etc are quite a devolution, or degeneration, of "old time Pentecost" (whether Oneness or trinitarian).