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  #51  
Old 02-17-2015, 09:43 AM
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KeptByTheWord KeptByTheWord is offline
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
From what I've seen online they seem like old mainline baptist meetings (with modest dress, no jewelry, and headcoverings).

Not quite my cup of tea. lol
Yes, you are probably right, I believe they are very much oldtime Baptist in their worship. I don't know though, since I've never been to one of their meetings.
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  #52  
Old 02-17-2015, 09:46 AM
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
While Christianity did break forth from Judaism, and many first Christians continued in their Jewish traditions... to me, biblical Christianity is unique above all other "worldly" and "earthly" religions. It is unique because it has no special holy days, every day is considered holy. It has only two definite sacraments, baptism and the Lord's Supper. It's law is love, and love fulfills the spirit of the entire Law of Scripture. Also, Christianity isn't married to any specific language or culture, therefore it is universal in it's scope, appeal, and application. Biblical Christianity is a faith of pure love and Spirit that transcends all earthly accoutrements.

Therefore, Messianic Christianity seems to be a Christian faith frozen in time. A faith forcing all into a Jewish mold and fashion... rather they have any true Jewish heritage or not. Therefore, it forces many to live a lie.
Very true.
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  #53  
Old 02-17-2015, 02:36 PM
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Lafon - while we know that the Gentiles have been given an opportunity for salvation, it does not mean that no Jews cannot hear the truth about the Messiah and believe. Maybe what you are referring to is the Jews as a whole nation, but certainly, I know there are Jews who believe in the Messiah. Just because you may not know of any fully embracing the gospel doesn't mean that there are none.

God NEVER makes a mistake! When ancient Israel was warned their forsaking of God's commandments would result in a "curse" of gross spiritual blindness being imposed upon them (see Deuteronomy 28:27-28), it meant that the curse would be all-encompassing, implying that none of them would be exempted but that the entire nation would experience its effect. An important part of that judgment specifically stated that following its imposition, "NO MAN SHALL SAVE THEM!"

Moving forward from that day in BC 1451 when Moses announced this impending judgment, we discover that God sent other prophets to Israel, not only to remind them of this judgment for their continued rebellion against His commandments, but also to remind them WHEN this judgment would be imposed. One such prophet was Jeremiah, who in the year BC 600, readily acknowledged that even then "my people know not the (coming) judgment of the LORD" (Jeremiah 8:7, Emphasis Added). He followed this announcement by advising WHEN the promised judgment would befall his people Israel, saying, "in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD" (see Jeremiah 8:12).

The prophet Jeremiah reiterated this warning in the closing portion of his writings, saying, "in the time of their visitation they shall perish" (Jeremiah 51:18). There were others whom God sent to Israel to warn them of the judgment of rejection which would befall them because of their continued rejection of Him and His commandments, however orecious few of them took heed, and then it happened.

God did, indeed, "visit" His chosen people of Israel, doing so as the Christ child born of the virgin Mary, but, alas, only a few recognized and acknowledged Him as their long awaited for promised Saviour and King. For the majority of the Jewish peoples Christ Jesus was just another newborn son, and so it was, for the greater part, His birth of a virgin did not generate much "gossip" except perhaps those closest to Joseph, Mary and a few others.

As the Christ child matured into adulthood, and some began to take notice to his knowledge of spiritual things which seemed to be "above the norm" for one of his childhood as a mere carpenter's son, more people began to take notice and to entertain and express questions about Him, Then one day, after he had attained the age of acceptance as a Priest, He went to visit John the Baptist to be immersed in the waters of baptism for the repentance of sins(although He was without sins, but committed himself to this deed to provide us with an example showing that immersion in water baptism is an integral element of God's plan of redemption for the souls of sinful mankind).

During the subsequent 3+ years of His ministry, some, but not a great number of the Jewish citizenry followed Him and the small contingent of disciples He had called, but because His teachings opposed the orthodox practices and man-made traditions of the Pharisees, Sadduccees and scribes, resentment to His preaching began to increase. Shortly before His ministry was to end, an ocassion arose as He approached the city of Jerusalem when he paused, and observing the building of this place where God had sworn to Solomon that His Name, and His eyes, and His heart would be there perpetually (see I Kings 9:1-3), Jesus wept.

We aren't told how long He lamented with tears because of what He knew that He had to do, but I believe it was much more than a few drops but perhaps many. Yes, we're told that He was accompanied by a rather large crowd on that ocassion and perhaps they, being unaware of the remorse and deep sense of saddness which He was experiencing because of that which He was about to do, were somewhat perplexed as He regained His composure, and began to cry aloud so that everyone accompanying Him heard His words plainly.

Then He said in announcing that devasting, destructive, and far-reaching judgment God had given them ample warning about more than 1,450 years earlier, saying "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this thy day, the thingsd which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes." He continued by adving them of some of the most immediate consequences this judgment would bring to that generation of the peoples of Israel, closing His pronouncement with these solemn words ... "because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation." (see Luke 19:41-44)

I do not believe that with our Lord's imposition of this judgment of "gross spiritual blindness' upon the Jewish people, a judgment which meant that those Jews of that generation would be rendered utterly incapable of properly discerning between truth and error, took "full force" at that moment, but that gradually during the ensuing days, and before that generation passed away completely, the Jews of every subsequent generation would be incapable of recognizing truth in any form, including the true identity of the Christ child.

Just a short while afterwards, following the death, burial, resurrection and bodily ascension of our Lord to His throne in the invisible heavens, and on that first Pentecost celebration when the baptism of the Holy Ghost was given, and Peter arose to tender an explanation of what had transpired to a large contingent of assembled Jews, we must take note of these words of warning which He issued to them: "Save yourselves from THIS untoward generation." (Acts 2:40). Peter did NOT warn them to save themselves from the many "untoward" generations of Jews that were to follow, for he knew that God had turned His back on them, and would not turn His attention again to them for many generations to come.

This is why we find that by the early days of the 2nd Century, when all of the Jews of that generation of our Lord's "visit" to the land of Israel, were no longer a part of the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal churches. The minds of the Jews of the succeeding generations were incapable of recognizing or acknowledging Christ Jesus as either Lord or Savior. This same condition continues to prevail, and will do so, until the prophesied "times of the Gentiles" have come to fruition, that is, reached its fulness, after which God will once again turn His attention back to Israel, as He has promised, and then ALL of Israel shall be saved.

So, regarding the question of whether there are Jews today who have accepted Christ Jesus, the One True and Living God as their promised Messiah and Saviour, the answer MUST be a resounding NO! God's alloted time of "visitation" to the Gentiles has NOT been completed, albeit it is rapidly nearing that moment when it will occur, but until that happens, NO Jew, a "true" descendant of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob can be saved!

This is the manner in which I understand this issue, and serves to explain why I denounce that "religious" group commonly called Messianic Christianity. Oh, they might believe in a Jesus, but he is a different Jesus that the One whom the apostles preached, and the One in whom I believe!
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  #54  
Old 02-17-2015, 02:42 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

The constant quest for some new standard, or some new form, or some kind of "image" to maintain is evidence that what one has isn't fulfilling.

The only thing that will bring fulfillment is grace and realizing the law of love.
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  #55  
Old 02-17-2015, 05:07 PM
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
The constant quest for some new standard, or some new form, or some kind of "image" to maintain is evidence that what one has isn't fulfilling.

The only thing that will bring fulfillment is grace and realizing the law of love.
Right. Most people involved in Messianic groups have left other groups - Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostal to name a few... and have simply traded one set of ideas for another.

Everyone needs to read Bro. Blume's post earlier today about the veil of flesh. It is very powerful to understand that what separates us from the Lord simply is our will. More laws, standards, images, teachings, forms, etc., can never change the heart in the way that the spirit of the Lord can.
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  #56  
Old 02-17-2015, 05:10 PM
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

Lafon - I guess I am astounded at your belief that no Jew can be saved at this present time! I have never heard such a thing, and believe that you have misinterpreted scripture and have misapplied it.

I know many Jews have come to the Lord, and have been filled with the Spirit. While you may not know any, does not mean that there aren't any. I really think your understanding may apply to the Jewish people as a nation, but that individuals are not excluded from salvation simply based upon their lineage.
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  #57  
Old 02-17-2015, 05:58 PM
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Lafon - I guess I am astounded at your belief that no Jew can be saved at this present time! I have never heard such a thing, and believe that you have misinterpreted scripture and have misapplied it.

I know many Jews have come to the Lord, and have been filled with the Spirit. While you may not know any, does not mean that there aren't any. I really think your understanding may apply to the Jewish people as a nation, but that individuals are not excluded from salvation simply based upon their lineage.

KBTW, I believe it MUST be understood that NOT everyone who claims to be a Jew is a "true" Jew, that is, a "blood" descendant of the Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A non-blood related convert to Judaism is NOT, nor can they be considered as a "true" Jew! For instance, even Jesus made the distinction between a descendant of the patriarchs and the Samaritans, who were of mixed heritage.

Because there are those of Samaritan heritage who today consider themselves Jews, I am not persduaded to believe that God "sees" them as such, therefore it is entirely possible for these, who were NOT the recipient of God's judgment of "gross spiritual blindness," that could be given a revelation of the true identify of Christ Jesus, and be saved.

Perhaps it is folks such as these who call themselves Messianic Christians, however, that is purely speculation on my part and not something that I have indisputable proof about.

There have been some, in fact many, who have interpreted the words of Romans 11:25, wherein it is written "that blindness IN PART has happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in," to imply/infer that our Lord's imposition of the judgment of spiritual blindness which He imposed (Luke 19:41-44) applied only to "some" or a "part' of the Jewish people, and NOT ALL were effected. This could NOT possibly be true, for it it were, then it would indicate that He had shown a "respect of persons," but we know that this is something that He could NOT ever do (see Romans 2:11).

This is why I hold tenaciously to the belief that currently, and UNTIL the "times of the Gentiles" has come to it fulfillment, NO "true" descendant of the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is capable of acknowledging Christ Jesus, the One and Only True God and our Saviour, the "revelation" of which is essential to becoming one of His Spirit filled, sanctified disciples.
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  #58  
Old 02-17-2015, 06:16 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

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How far does that extend?
Could a person who is half Jew be saved?
What about 1/4 or 1/32?
Where is the cut-off?
Lafon - How about answering the above?
After all, I don't want to waste my time witnessing to someone who cannot be saved.
Any other races that I need to skip?
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Last edited by aegsm76; 02-17-2015 at 06:19 PM.
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  #59  
Old 02-17-2015, 06:42 PM
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

Lafon - I highly doubt that there are any "true blood" ancestors left straight from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... so this idea and conception that you have presented is really just - far out, in my opinion!
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Old 02-17-2015, 06:44 PM
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Re: My visit to a Messianic service yesterday

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Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
Lafon - I highly doubt that there are any "true blood" ancestors left straight from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob... so this idea and conception that you have presented is really just - far out, in my opinion!
The bible never said a Jew has to be so by blood descent. A gentile who is circumcised as a male and keeps the law was considered as one BORN IN THE LAND. Jewishness is nothing about race. Hitler promoted that error. A Jew is a person religiously adhering to Mosaic Law OR born of a jewish woman. It's either, though. Not just birth. After all, A jew told me that in his book THE SECOND JEWISH BOOK OF WHY.
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