The Anti-christ IS the "restrainer"?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Please answer my question. How can Jesus avenge the church Paul wrote to and deal with their persecutors if the vengeance is long after they're dead and gone with no one who persecuted the church there to be able to be dealt with?

Why avoid my question?

Jesus was glorified in the saints by having proved himself right and avenging the church under fire. Don't make all prophecies irrelevant to the people to whom they were written.

The same way he could give instructions to people who would not read his words until 2000 years later. Everything Paul wrote was to THEM, but do we not claim it as instructions for us as well? Paul assumed Christ was soon to come it seems.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The same way he could give instructions to people who would not read his words until 2000 years later. everything Paul wrote was to THEM, but do we not claim it as instructions for us as well? Paul assumed Christ was soon to come it seems.

When a certain people are going through a particular tribulation in their day, then it directly applies to them when wrath for tribulation is mentioned. Noah's words about the flood waters judging sinners does not apply to anyone since that time, although we read it today.

When things are written to people for all centuries of the church, then there is no particular and specific thing limited to the audience that is mentioned. What is mentioned is what is common to all believers in every era. Tribulation to this degree is not common to every era. Many centuries went by where Christians somewhere were free of any persecution.

So, the question remains, how would wrath centuries later affect those dead and gone? It is wrath on those in the world, not in hell.

My opinions, anyway.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The same way he could give instructions to people who would not read his words until 2000 years later. Everything Paul wrote was to THEM, but do we not claim it as instructions for us as well? Paul assumed Christ was soon to come it seems.

Exactly

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Right... Or the holy ghost being the restrainer,.

Okay. I think I see it now. MTD is partially right. Mike Blume is partially right.

Here is a paraphrased version of what I feel the verses are saying concerning the restrainer.....



1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs (falling away, apostasy) and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple , proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

6 And now you know what is holding him (the anti-Christ) back (the falling away that must first come is what is holding him back from taking power), so that he may be revealed at the proper time (right after the falling away).

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one restraining (the coming of Christ) will continue to do so until he is taken out of the midst of the apostasy/falling away (he will be a product of the falling away.)

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed (from the midst of the falling away), whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Okay. I think I see it now. MTD is partially right. Mike Blume is partially right.
Here is a paraphrased version of what I feel the verses are saying concerning the restrainer.....

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs (falling away, apostasy) and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple , proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
6 And now you know what is holding him (the anti-Christ) back (the falling away that must first come is what is holding him back from taking power), so that he may be revealed at the proper time (right after the falling away).
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one restraining (the coming of Christ) will continue to do so until he is taken out of the midst of the apostasy/falling away (he will be a product of the falling away.)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed (from the midst of the falling away), whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

1 THES. 2

v.1-2...about the Day of the Lord
v.3-4...about the apoststasy and the man of sin
v.5......call to remember the POWER against sin
v.6......Holy Spirit is holding back the full manifestation of wickedness
v.7......the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way...to reveal fullness of sin...
v.8......then shall that wicked be revealed...

Folks, as regarding sin, you ain't seen nothing yet!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

1 THES. 2

v.1-2...about the Day of the Lord
v.3-4...about the apoststasy and the man of sin
v.5......call to remember the POWER against sin
v.6......Holy Spirit is holding back the full manifestation of wickedness
v.7......the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way...to reveal fullness of sin...
v.8......then shall that wicked be revealed...

Folks, as regarding sin, you ain't seen nothing yet!

The Holy Spirit is omni-present. There is not one thing Paul says that points to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The Holy Spirit is omni-present. There is not one thing Paul says that points to the Holy Spirit being the restrainer.

Paul is bringing the Church to remembrance not only of what keeps us from sin, but keeps sin
from us! Remember: "...false Christs and prophets will show great signs and wonders; insomuch
that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." You must ask yourselves, what
is keeping us from being deceived? It is the Holy Spirit abiding in us!

Of course the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, because it is that individual portion of the Father's Spirit:
it is without contradiction. And THAT is the only thing that restrains the fullness of iniquity and
sin in the world. It is NOT the denom's or the temples; it is NOT you or me; it is the Holy Spirit
in the Church! Now this: the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken out of the world: it will be taken out
of the way..."And then shall that wicked be revealed..."!

You that refuse to receive the Holy Spirit: YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Paul is bringing the Church to remembrance not only of what keeps us from sin, but keeps sin
from us! Remember: "...false Christs and prophets will show great signs and wonders; insomuch
that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." You must ask yourselves, what
is keeping us from being deceived? It is the Holy Spirit abiding in us!

Of course the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, because it is that individual portion of the Father's Spirit:
it is without contradiction. And THAT is the only thing that restrains the fullness of iniquity and
sin in the world. It is NOT the denom's or the temples; it is NOT you or me; it is the Holy Spirit
in the Church! Now this: the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken out of the world: it will be taken out
of the way..."And then shall that wicked be revealed..."!

You that refuse to receive the Holy Spirit: YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHING YET!

The problem is, this deception happens with the elect still on earth. If the Spirit has left then he has left the elect.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Exactly. People like to play the "how does this help us reach the lost" card when something is being said that makes them question their own beliefs. Just messin with you Sean.

That wasn't Sean who asked that, it was me. And I wasn't "playing a card to avoid dealing with issues that make me question my beliefs". It does however make me question the amountof time I spend on here.

Carry on, gents!

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The problem is, this deception happens with the elect still on earth. If the Spirit has left then he has left the elect.

To what deception are you referring?

The Holy Spirit WILL NOT be taken out of the world (earth): that is a deception! The Holy Spirit
will be "...taken out of the way..." to accomplish the final deception on those who will not receive
the Truth. Then will these words begin to be fulfilled: He that is unjust let him be unjust
still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be
righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The Holy Spirit will STILL ABIDE IN the Church (in the faithful).