born of water

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

John 3:3__a man must be born (begotten) from above (the Father).
John 3:4__Nicodemus did not understand: he thought Jesus meant birthed (not begotten): "Can a man be born (birthed)
when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born (birthed)?
This revelation must can only come from God.

In John 3:8, the Lord was referring to the birth "...of water and of the Spirit." The natural man cannot understand the things of God.

John 3:8 is explicitly about those born of the spirit not those born of water and the spirit

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, you can't have one without the other.

Water baptism correlates to the burial: "...buried with him by baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father..." .
Paul writes that our natural bodies must die and be sown (planted in the waters), that we may be raised a spiritual body.

It is therefore, not 2 births, but one.

I cannot see how the spiritual body in 1 Cor 15 is speaking about water baptism burial. The context of he chapter is physical resurrection of bodies form the grave and change in the coming of Christ. Not baptism. The spiritual body is a physical body that was mortal but changed to be immortal, as Christ was changed in the tomb when He resurrected to have a body that never dies again.

Romans 6 says baptism is into death. It is burial, but burial into death. We are baptized into His death.

[mfblume]

If baptism is a mikveh, then what has mikveh got to do with getting inclusion into Christ's death?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

John 3:8 is explicitly about those born of the spirit not those born of water and the spirit

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned."
There are two part to the above verse: can one negate the other? Of course not!
The second part speaks only of "...he that believes not..."; because the person that does not believe will deny repentance or baptism.

John 3:8__ does not negate any portion of the scriptures in chapter 3 of John, nor do any other verses in that chapter negate verse 8.
Verse 5 stands by itself. It speaks of planting the natural man (going into the waters), and the birth of the spiritual man.

Even the natural realm testifies: an apple seed, by itself, cannot bring forth the tree that can give apples unless it is planted.
Man cannot be "born" into the kingdom of God unless he first dies (repents) and is then buried (in the waters of baptism).

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned."
There are two part to the above verse: can one negate the other? Of course not!
The second part speaks only of "...he that believes not..."; because the person that does not believe will deny repentance or baptism.

John 3:8__ does not negate any portion of the scriptures in chapter 3 of John, nor do any other verses in that chapter negate verse 8.
Verse 5 stands by itself. It speaks of planting the natural man (going into the waters), and the birth of the spiritual man.

Even the natural realm testifies: an apple seed, by itself, cannot bring forth the tree that can give apples unless it is planted.
Man cannot be "born" into the kingdom of God unless he first dies (repents) and is then buried (in the waters of baptism).

And John 3:5 does not negate John 3:7-8

instead of being combative, think about the implications of what u are saying. If water and spirit is one birth then how can Jesus refer to those just born of the spirit. And if water and spirit denote two births why doesn't jesus say you need to be twice born again. Those are the implications of your interpretation of John 3:5

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

And John 3:5 does not negate John 3:7-8

instead of being combative, think about the implications of what u are saying. If water and spirit is one birth then how can Jesus refer to those just born of the spirit. And if water and spirit denote two births why doesn't jesus say you need to be twice born again. Those are the implications of your interpretation of John 3:5

Good point. Again, why do some hang their belief in the necessity of baptism on John 3:5? In John 4 and 7 Jesus clearly told us what the "water" is, the Spirit within. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and others are sufficient to establish that baptism is an essential step towards the new birth without trying to force John 3:5 to say something it is not.

[Aquila]

It's really kind of simple...

John 3:5 (ESV)
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Aquila

It's really kind of simple...

John 3:5 (ESV)
5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Yeah when you compare it to John 4 and John 7 it sure is easy!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by jfrog

In John 3:7 and 3:8 born again is directly correlated with being born of the spirit.

.....which are a prophecy of Acts 2:2(sound of a wind) and completely fulfilled in Acts 2:38(water and Spirit)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Sean

.....which are a prophecy of Acts 2:2(sound of a wind) and completely fulfilled in Acts 2:38(water and Spirit)

The sound of the rushing mighty wind in acts 2 had nothing to do with John 3