Christianity is based on substitutionary atonement

[Gnostic Bishop]

Go away child. I seek adult minds.

Regards
DL

[Aquila]

Can anyone do enough good works to earn Heaven?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop

Your last is bang on.

"but we do know that God has elevated belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus as the primary starting point and focus of our salvation."

Yes God has, to his shame shame.

As above so below.

We have to embrace human sacrifice and the punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty when God's law is on earth.

Do you like that idea? Is it a moral one?

Regards
DL

Human sacrifice is a good thing. Ever hear of the firefighter who sacrificed his life trying to save a person caught in a burning house? I'm sure that's not the kind of sacrifice you had in mind though...

Again, punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is only present in the penal substitution model of atonement. There is no other model that demands that the innocent suffer instead of the guilty. Your beef is with the penal substitution model of atonement. I have the same beef. The penal substitution model is immoral. But call it like it is. Your problem is not with every Christian model of atonement and you are acting like it is.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Gnostic Bishop

Go away child. I seek adult minds.

Regards
DL

You continue to evade and name call because you do not have an answer to my points. Everyone here knows it including you.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Human sacrifice is a good thing. Ever hear of the firefighter who sacrificed his life trying to save a person caught in a burning house? I'm sure that's not the kind of sacrifice you had in mind though...

Again, punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is only present in the penal substitution model of atonement. There is no other model that demands that the innocent suffer instead of the guilty. Your beef is with the penal substitution model of atonement. I have the same beef. The penal substitution model is immoral. But call it like it is. Your problem is not with every Christian model of atonement and you are acting like it is.

You raise some good points. Christ sacrificed himself. This is the point that the Bishop does not want to deal with.

[jfrog]

By the way oneness has the best answer to his claims, God sacrificed himself...

[Gnostic Bishop]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Can anyone do enough good works to earn Heaven?

Scripture say we all do but most churches do not go by what the scriptures say on this and have most of us going to hell and death instead of heaven.


2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Churches do not interpret the word "all" in those quotes as all. They interpret "all" as few and the churches are wrong.
--------------------------

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow him but I see that you have taken the line that someone else should pay your dues. Quite manly and moral that. Not.

Do you really think someone else can pay your dues and allow you to shirk your just reward?

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

As above so below.

If you had God's power, would you not be able to find a way that does not go against the wisdom of Jesus and the bible?

Perhaps like being man enough to step up to your own demands for a worthy sacrifice?

That is what a good God would do.

Regards

[Gnostic Bishop]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Human sacrifice is a good thing. Ever hear of the firefighter who sacrificed his life trying to save a person caught in a burning house? I'm sure that's not the kind of sacrifice you had in mind though...

Again, punishment of the innocent instead of the guilty is only present in the penal substitution model of atonement. There is no other model that demands that the innocent suffer instead of the guilty. Your beef is with the penal substitution model of atonement. I have the same beef. The penal substitution model is immoral. But call it like it is. Your problem is not with every Christian model of atonement and you are acting like it is.

My problem, if I have one, is not the issue.

The issue is Christians having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

I think you have agreed with this and that is all I wanted.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You continue to evade and name call because you do not have an answer to my points. Everyone here knows it including you.

You did not offer a worthy point.

If you had you would have restated it.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You raise some good points. Christ sacrificed himself. This is the point that the Bishop does not want to deal with.

I do my fathers will and not my own.

You are so busy trying to put your responsibility on someone else's shoulders that you will immorally try to get a free ride on a scapegoat into heaven.

God wants responsible men in heaven. Not whiny children like you who will not pick up their own cross as Jesus says you should.

Regards
DL