You Can Fake It All

[ILG]

Originally Posted by endtimer

This is true. ILG described in great detail the church my parents were converted in and I ultimately grew up in.

Huh? Do I know the church you grew up in?

[ILG]

When someone is sharing of their own background, I do not see it as "picking on" that group. If ILG had come from a Baptist type church and posted similar, would the same ones say she is railing against or picking on the Baptists? She also clearly noted in the OP, "The same thing is true in all churches..."

Thanks, Reader, I completely agree.

Instead of dismissing the post without giving it much thought, could you consider that she may have a point? Especially this: "Since this formula is so traditional and passed down from generation to generation to "be saved" there are likely a great many in the UPC and other apostolic churches that don't have a clue what true salvation is, they are just following the formula."

That's what I ask myself every time I post something like this. I didn't come out railing and ranting like some here are saying. But it seems like they *wish* I was. Because sometimes, the truth hurts and people want to yell and point fingers and blame and get the focus off themselves and their own organization. It just makes it easier for them. But considering that I may have a point but just hurt too much. But if they would stop and think about it and consider and learn and grow, much good could be accomplished.

Consider something I saw in the post, if you could set aside the thought that she is railing on the UPC. Is it not possible that there are people there who follow all the rules, so to speak, but who really don't have that real knowledge of Jesus or a lasting relationship with him?

This is what I have been trying to say. And it is obviously true. Otherwise there would not be sin in the camp from time to time. Usually then people start saying how all organizations have this. Well, of course they do. That is also part of my point. The difference? The UPC can't seem to admit it. A very good example is the fact that I wrote this thread and people come out swinging. So, we have to ask why the strong, strong defending? Why can't there just be a discussion and an admittance?

Could some in the church press these rules so much to the point where ones coming in might just see the necessity of the rules and focus on them and neglect what the rules are supposed to be all about? Have some focused too much on a "formula" to give security? Isn't this what the Pharisees did to their converts? They were so into "getting it right" that when Jesus, their Messiah came, they not know or recognize him. In addition, they also had people looking to them and thinking they were a great example and saved......when they were not. (I am not mentioning the Pharisees to insinuate that the UPC is the equivalent of them, but using their example to show a point that I believe the OP was sharing. The Pharisees has a "formula" and were adamant about it, yet so many of them missed knowing God.)

Exactly, and my point is that the whole UPC formula can be faked.

If this is so, that in essence there are people "going through the motions" in the churches but not truly having that knowledge or personal relationship with Jesus, what can be done about it? What changes could be made in the churches to stop, or at least greatly hinder, such from happening?

Thank you for your points. I think one of the biggest things that can be done to help this is to start to admit that indeed the whole thing can be faked and stop fighting it every time someone mentions that it is true. Only when the admitting is done can changes be made.

[endtimer]

Originally Posted by ILG

Huh? Do I know the church you grew up in?

I doubt you know my previous church. My point is. that I relate to your original post, in part. I don't blame an organization;
I blame carnal, prayerless men. I refuse to dwell on my bad experience. I've moved on and I'm better off for it.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by endtimer

I doubt you know my previous church. My point is. that I relate to your original post, in part. I don't blame an organization;
I blame carnal, prayerless men. I refuse to dwell on my bad experience. I've moved on and I'm better off for it.

I think we all deal with things in our own ways, in the way that is best for us. For example, when people have loved ones that die, people deal with their grief differently, one way is not right and the other wrong. For me, talking is very beneficial, but not when I am attacked with having wrong motives for doing so. I just move on and do what I do because no matter how often I am told why I am the way I am, I know many people have their own selfish motivations for saying so that have nothing at all to do with me and I let it go.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

Yeah, some people can't seem to focus on the nice post you had. They have to make it into a bash thread because they don't like the message. Too close to the truth, I guess.

No, YOU made it into a bash thread by singling out the UPC. Don't try to blame that on me or others who took exception to that trash. And as I pointed out earlier, it wasn't truth....which is why I take exception.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

I have a feeling if I told you that I went to 500 churches every week for 25 years, it would still not be enough.

I have a feeling the actual amount is 498 less, give or take a few. Funny you won't answer that simple question.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Reader

But she did say that: "The same thing is true in all churches..."

Should the Pharisees have dismissed all that Jesus said because he picked on them and called the group out by name?

You didn't use the full quote. Sure, she said that, but then gave everyone but the UPC an out by wrongly saying the UPC is the only one saying who's in and who's out.

[ILG]

From now on, if anyone wants to discuss the subject of this thread, which is whether a person can fake following the Acts 2:38 formula and standards, that is what I would like to discuss. All this talk about "bashing" is nothing but a rabbit trail to deflect what needs to be discussed and I will discuss that no further.

And so....the whole formula can be faked, no matter if it's UPC, ALJC, PAW or whatever the name of the organization may be. It is very easy to fake repentance, baptism, tongues and the following of standards with no spirituality connected to it whatsoever even though it is used as a stick to measure people's connectedness to God.

[n david]

Originally Posted by ILG

From now on, if anyone wants to discuss the subject of this thread, which is whether a person can fake following the Acts 2:38 formula and standards, that is what I would like to discuss. All this talk about "bashing" is nothing but a rabbit trail to deflect what needs to be discussed and I will discuss that no further.

And so....the whole formula can be faked, no matter if it's UPC, ALJC, PAW or whatever the name of the organization may be. It is very easy to fake repentance, baptism, tongues and the following of standards with no spirituality connected to it whatsoever even though it is used as a stick to measure people's connectedness to God.

Please. Why go through the trouble of all that when it's much easier to fake it in a denominal church. No need for baptism or Holy Ghost or living separate from the world. Say a prayer and keep living how you want to live.

Of course people can fake it. Though I reject your claim that a great many do so.
And what's constructive about this? Other than saying....oooooh the UPC fakes it, which isn't true. How do you know? Did you? Why are you judging people?

[Reader]

Originally Posted by n david

You didn't use the full quote. Sure, she said that, but then gave everyone but the UPC an out by wrongly saying the UPC is the only one saying who's in and who's out.

Full quote: "The same thing is true in all churches but many other churches don't constantly measure who is "in" and who is "out"."

Where did she say the UPC is the ONLY ONE saying who is in or out? Where? She states "many other churches don't" but nowhere says UPC is the ONLY one. Could you be reading things into her writing because of prior posts and a predisposition against this poster? She also stated some in the UPC have faith and some do not. The same could be stated for every church organization.

The truth is that many other churches do not constantly measure who is in or out. There are churches with pretty much an "anything goes" teaching. You can even find ones where you can be a non-believer or a witch and fit in just fine and never feel you are being measured.

On the other hand, there are churches outside of Apostolics who also constantly measure who is in and out. Westboro is an prime example. There are a number of other churches/groups.

Here is what I see. Admin has read the thread and posted and did not accuse ILG of bashing the UPC, even though others posting before her stated she was. The thread was not locked as it would have been had admin felt it was in violation of the rules. Admin has the final word, as it should be.

So why not stop accusing the poster of 'whatever' and instead address the post. If you think what was shared has no merit, then say why, but not based upon what you think of the poster, but rather what was written by them. If you think some of it has merit, then say why, but not based upon what you think of the poster.