Respect as Women

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

Thank you MissB, you said this much better than I could have. I always approached standards by the principles that is based in scriptures, being honest with myself, and judging myself correctly, making sure that when I do something, that I'm not condemned by the scriptures.

Condemned?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If anyone thinks women are treated badly in OP circles, you ought to see how they fare in Orthodox Jewish circles.

I don't think we care too much how they are treated over there since we have no experience with it. (We care to the extent that we care how women are treated, but us doesn't affect us personally much....)

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by ILG

Condemned?

Yeah. Acting, being, dressing in a way that professes holiness, modesty, meekness. Making sure that I'm not being prideful in my actions, nor showing forth a haughty spirit, not being deceitful, trying to be something that I'm not, or thinking myself more than what I am, doings things to illicit lust....

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MarieA27

Yeah. Acting, being, dressing in a way that professes holiness, modesty, meekness. Making sure that I'm not being prideful in my actions, nor showing forth a haughty spirit, not being deceitful, trying to be something that I'm not, or thinking myself more than what I am, doings things to illicit lust....

I think the scriptures sometimes condemn certain things but if we are living by certain principles, we do not fall under condemnation regardless of church rules. You may mean the same or you may not, you will have to clarify. Some rules are preferences and traditions that try to exemplify virtue. But to me, that does not mean someone is condemned if they do not follow that rule. For example, skirts on women are meant to exemplify femininity and celebrate it. But a woman in pants is not condemned. See what I mean?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I agree, and that's why we've had these conversations. I realize from my own experience that it can be easy to follow rules yourself but harder to push them on your children when you don't believe they're biblical.

We've had a unique experience in this district because of our pastor. He's very respectful about parental authority and ultimately one of the wisest men I know. Church leadership obviously plays a huge role in what sort of "experience" you have with the church, regardless of the denomination.

Right now we have one daughter who has voluntarily made a decision to impose very strict rules upon herself (stricter than what we live and what our church teaches), for various reasons, and another who is kind of *on the fence* about it all. Our position has been to talk to them and let them choose their direction on their own. My theory is that if my daughters choose a conservative lifestyle for themselves with as little outside pressure as possible, they will have a more positive experience and are less likely to suffer from resentment and frustration later. It's only a theory and only time will tell if I'm right.

You are correct that I wouldn't be upset if my daughters chose to abandon standards per se, but I would be upset and disappointed if they abandoned modesty and femininity altogether, because those are values I've tried very hard to instill. I would be very upset and fasting and praying for their souls if they abandoned Apostolic doctrine. That would be difficult for me to handle. From that POV, I understand people who are upset when their kids abandon standards, because they believe those things are salvational and they do fear for their kids' souls. At that point it does boil down to this: The one thing you absolutely can't force your kids to do is have a relationship with God.

Does allowing them to "choose" their own direction inside the paradigm of the UPCI make them a team player by attendance, yet a bench warmer in regard to leadership positions?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Does allowing them to "choose" their own direction inside the paradigm of the UPCI make them a team player by attendance, yet a bench warmer in regard to leadership positions?

In regard to leadership positions, they've both been in the position of having to choose to obey rules if they wanted to accept a leadership or staff/departmental position. That's their choice to make. If they do accept a job or position of any sort, we insist on consistency. E.g., not complying simply while at church or on the platform; compliance all the time.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

In regard to leadership positions, they've both been in the position of having to choose to obey rules if they wanted to accept a leadership or staff/departmental position. That's their choice to make. If they do accept a job or position of any sort, we insist on consistency. E.g., not complying simply while at church or on the platform; compliance all the time.

Right, it would be their choice. But it is not as simple as your post makes it sound. In truth, the reality is that you can feel excluded by not following the rules. While lining out your defense, you have to add in this detail into the issue and conversation. It is a huge choice to have to make.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Right, it would be their choice. But it is not as simple as your post makes it sound. In truth, the reality is that you can feel excluded by not following the rules. While lining out your defense, you have to add in this detail into the issue and conversation. It is a huge choice to have to make.

Right, and this is where the issue becomes "toxic"... borrowing the term from ILG.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Right, it would be their choice. But it is not as simple as your post makes it sound. In truth, the reality is that you can feel excluded by not following the rules....

PO, I'm a very pragmatic person, and for me, it is that simple. Women can either live this way or not. Women choose to live according to Islam or not. Women choose orthodox Judaism--or not. You either live according to the Apostolic culture or you don't. It's a choice--not an easy one--but a choice and the consequences either way are mine to own. There are benefits and drawbacks either way, so the trick is in weighing whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks or whether you can tolerate the drawbacks.

For the record, I'm not likely to be sympathetic with my children for feeling excluded because of a rule. You either comply accordingly or you don't. If you don't want to follow the rules, you shouldn't be surprised or upset when you're either naturally excluded or when people purposely exclude you. Do you think a Muslim woman would be surprised to be excluded if she refused to wear her head covering? That would be silly on her part. I would only feel sympathetic if I felt my children weren't understanding the dynamics of the situation and if they were truly feeling hurt as a result. Otherwise it's the "that's no big deal" approach.

...While lining out your defense, you have to add in this detail into the issue and conversation. It is a huge choice to have to make.

I'm not sure I understand this part: "While lining out your defense...." I agree that it's a huge choice, but there are other variables that determine whether or not it's a painful choice.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

PO, I'm a very pragmatic person, and for me, it is that simple. Women can either live this way or not. Women choose to live according to Islam or not. Women choose orthodox Judaism--or not. You either live according to the Apostolic culture or you don't. It's a choice--not an easy one--but a choice and the consequences either way are mine to own. There are benefits and drawbacks either way, so the trick is in weighing whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks or whether you can tolerate the drawbacks.

For the record, I'm not likely to be sympathetic with my children for feeling excluded because of a rule. You either comply accordingly or you don't. If you don't want to follow the rules, you shouldn't be surprised or upset when you're either naturally excluded or when people purposely exclude you. Do you think a Muslim woman would be surprised to be excluded if she refused to wear her head covering? That would be silly on her part. I would only feel sympathetic if I felt my children weren't understanding the dynamics of the situation and if they were truly feeling hurt as a result. Otherwise it's the "that's no big deal" approach.



I'm not sure I understand this part: "While lining out your defense...." I agree that it's a huge choice, but there are other variables that determine whether or not it's a painful choice.

Yes, women do make choices. But your girls aren't women. They are underage and live in your house and under your care. They pretty much have to deal with whatever you and your husband are doing and where you attend church. I only refer to them as you have already mentioned your discussions with them. Although, I would respect you and your family by not going too far with the discussion here.

I am only looking at that as though my own children lived with me. I am just saying that giving them a choice would have caused a divide in my home if one child was sitting on the fence. If I am following the will of God, and we have, they are part of that choice.

My daughter is very talented and has to be "doing" something all the time. Now that she is older and gone, she has had to make that choice - because it was hers to make. While others followed the standards they didn't believe in, to keep their positions, she opted to be truthful about it and lost hers. So, going between two churches that are polar opposites, she wants to be in the one where she feels freedom in the Spirit. That choice happens to be a standard teaching church.

Anyway, from my perspective, it just isn't as easy as you made it sound in your posts. That's all I am saying. In the discussion of "choices", I am saying that I want to lay everything on the table. You didn't mention the difficulty that can be involved and I simply wanted to do that here.

My impression of your posts is that you love the conservative world you live in, so it is not toxic to you. Would that be correct?