Is There A Difference In?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

This question has got to be a joke.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure he's absolutely serious.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Just curious here. In the pictures posted in this thread, how are the guys dressed any differently from the men in the world? How can the world see those guys and know by their dressing that they are christians?

Or are holiness dress standards for women only?

This is a red herring because we don't (or shouldn't) dress differently simply for the sake of it. Women can choose clothing that is modest, and it will, more often than not, starkly contrast with our cultural dress. Men choose what is modest, and they are still dressing like the majority of other men in our culture.

The idea behind modesty isn't supposed to be to wear what is different; it's to wear what is modest. Whether that looks similar to the secular world or not is an irrelevant point.

When someone brings in the idea that we are to come out from "among them and be ye separate", it should be assumed that we are only separating ourselves from sinful or ungodly practices. We aren't going to use a different brand of toilet paper simply because our secular neighbor uses Charmin so we aren't "like them." However, we separate ourselves from any sinful or ungodly practices of our neighbor.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by n david

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure he's absolutely serious.

It's a valid question if we attempt to take off our personal biases.

For instance a lot of African christians would consider what American christians wear to be immodest.

Another instance is the Samfoo worn traditionally by Asian women. In principle, they are trousers. However, they have traditionally been worn by Chinese women. So is it immodest for Chinese women to wear thier Samfoo?

Unfortunately, some western missionaries have attempted to pass on the idea of not waering the Samfoo because they're trousers ("men's garments"....)

You also have the people living in the jungles who wear barely nothing. It's their culture (both men and women). Are these people immodest to themselves or just to us who live in the western world?

Are we sure we're not (unconsciously) preaching American version of Christianity as what is Christian and biblical?

So, yes, the question of who's definition of immodesty is quite valid

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

A Pastor teaching a standard of Holiness.....or
A Pastor teaching on a Holiness standard of dress?

Yes. Teaching the principle of being holy is teaching people to strive to be like God--in everything they are and everything they do. It involves a measure of humility, since the only way we can truly be like Him is to be filled with His Spirit, and let Him be strong where we are weak.

Teaching or following a rule about dress can be practical application of living a godly life, but the rule doesn't make a person holy or pure. It CAN be a reflection of their godliness and/or pure intentions. It can just as easily serve to mask their ungodliness or impurity. However, the fact that some people use rules to mask their own unrighteousness doesn't remove the value of the practices.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

This is a red herring because we don't dress differently simply for the sake of it. Women can choose what is modest, and it will, more often than not, starkly contrast with our cultural dress. Men choose what is modest, and they are still dressing like the majority of other men in our culture.

The idea behind modesty isn't supposed to be to wear what is different; it's to wear what is modest. Whether that looks similar to the secular world or not is an irrelevant point.

When someone brings in the idea that we are to come out from "among them and be ye separate", it should be assumed that we are only separating ourselves from sinful or ungodly practices. We aren't going to use a different brand of toilet paper simply because our secular neighbor uses Charmin so we aren't "like them." However, we separate ourselves from any sinful or ungodly practices of our neighbor.

I agree it's to look modest and not to be different. However, I asked the question in relation to the post below. The emboldened part:

Originally Posted by Maritha

Wait a minute. There is a standard and it is guided by our spiritual growth in the Lord.
It not only says be ye holy for I am holy, but it is written also
to come out from among them
they will know you are my people ....because you keep my laws
I the Lord thy God am One
I will be your God and you will be my people.
When people look at you, do they have to wonder or guess who you are?
I have never seen you before, but I should be able to tell who you are.
Has a a stranger ever approached you and said, "I can tell you walk with the Lord." Has anyone ever cried on your shoulder and told you their story and ask for prayer, without knowing your name. They won't do that if you have an ring in your lip, too short skirt or purple hair. There is a difference. holiness is reflected outside. Holiness should be your apostolic life. being saved is for life.

The poster seems to be implying that we should be known by our clothing. Like you said, apostolic men generally cannot be distinguished just from their dressing. So Maritha's post of trying to use clothing as a distinguishing factor of holiness would only apply to women. However, the principles of holiness applies to both men and women.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Miss Scarlett

This question has got to be a joke.

It's a valid question, and IMO, modesty is largely informed by culture. Obviously culture can't paint the whole picture, especially where cultures are largely ungodly, pagan or heathenish. Concepts of what constitutes gender distinction are also related to culture.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I agree it's to look modest and not to be different. However, I asked the question in relation to the post below. The emboldened part:




The poster seems to be implying that we should be known by our clothing. Like you said, apostolic men generally cannot be distinguished just from their dressing. So Maritha's post of trying to use clothing as a distinguishing factor of holiness would only apply to women. However, the principles of holiness applies to both men and women.

I understand where you're coming from. However, the simple fact that Christian men don't always look that different from their secular counterparts doesn't invalidate practices of modesty by women.

I agree that we shouldn't try to use clothing as a "distinguishing factor." It does, however, often distinguish us from the world around us. Sometimes people appreciate that and other times they have negative feelings toward Christians who "stand out." It isn't always a positive in the eyes of the world. FTR, though, I have received more flack from other Christians about my conservative dress than I EVER have from non-Christians or people with no Christian background. My oldest daughter was harassed more about her long hair and skirts while attending a Baptist school than she ever was in public school. It's very frustrating, because I think people project ideas and judgmental attitudes that really aren't there, but they react as if they are. Non-Christians are more likely to ask about our practices in a curious, open-minded way. People who are of other denominations or have a history with the church are more likely to be snarly, rude and condescending.

[MarieA27]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I understand where you're coming from. However, the simple fact that Christian men don't always look that different from their secular counterparts doesn't invalidate practices of modesty by women.

I agree that we shouldn't try to use clothing as a "distinguishing factor." It does, however, often distinguish us from the world around us. Sometimes people appreciate that and other times they have negative feelings toward Christians who "stand out." It isn't always a positive in the eyes of the world. FTR, though, I have received more flack from other Christians about my conservative dress than I EVER have from non-Christians or people with no Christian background. My oldest daughter was harassed more about her long hair and skirts while attending a Baptist school than she ever was in public school. It's very frustrating, because I think people project ideas and judgmental attitudes that really aren't there, but they react as if they are. Non-Christians are more likely to ask about our practices in a curious, open-minded way. People who are of other denominations or have a history with the church are more likely to be snarly, rude and condescending.

This is true.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Maritha

Wait a minute. There is a standard and it is guided by our spiritual growth in the Lord.
It not only says be ye holy for I am holy, but it is written also
to come out from among them
they will know you are my people ....because you keep my laws
I the Lord thy God am One
I will be your God and you will be my people.
When people look at you, do they have to wonder or guess who you are?
I have never seen you before, but I should be able to tell who you are.
Has a a stranger ever approached you and said, "I can tell you walk with the Lord." Has anyone ever cried on your shoulder and told you their story and ask for prayer, without knowing your name. They won't do that if you have an ring in your lip, too short skirt or purple hair. There is a difference. holiness is reflected outside. Holiness should be your apostolic life. being saved is for life.

Maritha, first of all, hello and welcome.

Secondly, ask yourself. How do you look like someone who is wearing Jesus?

Is it your dress or skirt? Your hair in a bun? Lack of jewelry?

The opposite of those items is not purple hair, a ring in your lip, or a short skirt. I can look modest and holy without wearing a specific list of items.

In addition, there are women all over the planet who wear Jesus on the outside as well as the inside, but they don't wear skirts or have lack of jewelry. They might not have their hair in a bun either. You live in America and dress like an American woman (I assume). Indian women, oriental women, and jungle women don't dress that way.

And what of men? Can you tell by how a man is dressed that he walks with Jesus? Can you tell by how a woman is dressed that she does as well? If so, let me introduce you to a cult group whose women appear to be UPC apostolic. Google Rama Bahera.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

You have made the usual OP points regarding standards, without a single verse here that correlates holiness with clothing. Please search the scriptures, and supply just ONE scripture that equates holiness with outward clothing. Just one.

To address your points ....
1. "It not only says be ye holy for I am holy".
HOW are we to be holy like God, if God is a spirit? Does God wear clothing? Please answer this question.

2. "When people look at you, do they have to wonder or guess who you are?"

Jesus said this about your point, John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another, by this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, IF YE HAVE LOVE ONE TO ANOTHER."

These words are from Jesus himself.... the way people should know who we are is by our love one to another.... he never said a word about clothing, and He certainly could have... but He didn't. Think about this! How you treat those around you is how you demonstrate that you are a disciple of Jesus! Not a word here about clothing.

And like a couple of others have pointed out... why is the need to look different from the world always on the woman? Do not men need to look different somehow as well?

3. Has a a stranger ever approached you and said, "I can tell you walk with the Lord." Has anyone ever cried on your shoulder and told you their story and ask for prayer, without knowing your name. They won't do that if you have an ring in your lip, too short skirt or purple hair. There is a difference. holiness is reflected outside. Holiness should be your apostolic life. being saved is for life.

Yes, Maritha, I don't look the part of a typical OP lady most of the time, although if I choose to, I can certainly put my hair up in a bun, put on a dress, and look like a OP lady. But I have been dressed wearing slacks, light makeup, a touch of jewelry, and have had strangers ask me where I attend church, have witnessed to many, many people ask me to pray for them. You see, it is the spirit that flows through me that lets people know that there is something about me that is different, and it is the SPIRIT of God that their spirit bears witness to, not my clothing.

I certainly wouldn't wear purple hair, or a ring in my lip, or any other such punk nonsense. Women can look just as modest in a pair of slacks as a skirt, and to be sure, I've seen a lot of women look very inappropriate in a skirt, and this in most OP churches....

I recognize the mindset that you have, and it is difficult after being taught these things for many years to look at someone and think that because they have a pair of slacks on that they must not be saved.

But according to the words of Jesus, what matters most is what is on the inside of our heart first, and that is how men will know that we are HIS disciples, by our love for Him, and for one another.

Excellent post! I, too, have been approached by people to pray for them and such. I can also see who the Jesus believers are without having to look at what they are wearing.