What is Nature of Original Sin?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now, let us examine these statements a little more closely. If these statements are true, then the following is also true, for they follow necessarily from the quoted premises.

1. God commands men to do what they cannot possibly do. God commands all men to love Him supremely and their neighbor as themselves. The keeping of God's commandments (the various commandments in the bible) are the mechanisms of obeying God in various circumstances. Since men fail to obey God because they have a sin nature, it is necessarily impossible for them to obey God.
2. God condemns men for not doing what they could not possibly do to begin with. Since sinners are damned, and since sinners cannot possibly obey God, men are condemned for not doing the impossible.
3. Babies who are aborted or die in infancy are condemned to hell with no possibility of salvation. since after death is the Judgement, and since babies are born sinners, and since sinners are BY NATURE (not their moral character) are condemned to hell, all babies are condemned from conception. If they die, as babies or infants, they are damned.
3. Sins (the actions of breaking God's commandments) are involuntary and beyond our control. And because they are involuntary, it follows that -
4. Sins do not incur guilt. Guilt is a moral state describing one who has not done what they should have done, or who has done what they should not have done. But it cannot be said one should have done that which is a natural and complete impossibility. Therefore, sins do not incur guilt.
5. Sinners are not guilty of anything. They possess the sin nature, and are therefore damned for hell, but since guilt is incurred by failure to act as one ought to act, and since possessing a sin nature is wholly involuntary and beyond anyone's control, sinners are not actually guilty of anything at all.
6. God damns the innocent. Since sinners are not actually guilty of anything at all, yet are damned for being human, they are innocent of wrongdoing but damned anyway.
7. God creates sinners and is the immediate cause of their damnation. The bible teaches that each of us is fashioned in the womb by God, that he created us each, individually. Since he created us each, individually, personally, with a sin nature, and since he has decided that anyone possessing a sin nature is damned, he has intentionally created us as sinners. God made us sinners. God did it intentionally, since nothing he does is by accident. The only reason we are damned is because we have a sin nature, and the only reason we have a sin nature is because God made us that way.
8. God punishes the children with damnation for the sins of their fathers. Or at least, for the sins of Adam. We did nothing but be born. Adam sinned and damned us all to hell. God damns us all to hell because of what Adam did,. not because of what we do or fail to do
9. Sinners have a just complaint against God. Sinners will stand before God on judgement day and confess 'I did nothing to deserve damnation, I was made this way, I was born this way, and you, God, made me this way.' And God will agree and ........ them anyway. Thus, God is not righteous in his judgements, but arbitrary and capricious.
10. Salvation is not of grace. Grace is undeserved favor. In regards to criminal issues, and court judgements, grace is forgiveness, leniency, pardon, mercy. But no sinner can truly believe salvation is by grace, if damnation is wholly involuntary and is earned by something somebody else did, and not themselves. If I commit a crime, and the court decides to punish YOU for the crime because you are related to me, and then decides to spare you the punishment, you will never believe how gracious and merciful the court was. You will at best be thankful the court chose to act JUSTLY in not punishing the innocent. And thus, you will view your salvation as a matter of JUSTICE and not GRACE.

These are necessary conclusions that result from the premises given in support of 'original sin'. They are as false as they are preposterous.

Some Scriptures are then given to buttress this pagan absurdity called 'original sin', such as:



The Scripture here emphasises man's wickedness, not that he is wicked because he is man, but because he is wicked, his heart was thoroughly evil. This verse simply describes the moral condition of mankind at the time immediately prior to the Flood, and does not say that mankind has a sin nature.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Noah was not among those who were described in verse 5. Also, God was sorry he had made man. Why would he be sorry if he had made them sinners to begin with, and they were simply doing what he made them to do? God makes each of us, the bible teaching on THAT is clear and unrefutable.





A favorite of the Arminians, this verse does not declare that David was born with a sin nature. If taken literally, it literally means his mother committed sin in conceiving him, and God's shaping of him was iniquitous. It does not say what the proponents of original sin want it to say.

This is part of David's psalm of repentance and confession for his sin in having Bathsheba's husband killed so he could take her for his own. If David is here confessing that he was born a sinner, and had a sin nature, and therefore his sins are the result of his nature, and not his evil choices, then the rest of the Psalm is redundant. One does not feel GUILT and REMORSE for what they themselves DID NOT HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER. David is not excusing his sins, which is the necessary conclusion that proponents of original sin doctrine try to hide from.



Again, stating that all are sinners, is not the same as saying all are sinners because they have no control over themselves because they have a sin nature. Such a conclusion is a non sequitur. Notice the tie in between those who are just, as being those who 'sinneth not'. In other words, NOWHERE does the Bible equate sinning with the involuntary possession of human nature, or identifies 'unrighteous' people as those who 'are humans'. Instead, here, as elsewhere, moral condition is equated with ACTIONS - sinning or not sinning.



The passage specifically states "... and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" thereby refuting the original sin doctrine. the word 'for' means BECAUSE.

I will deal with romans 5 in a later post because it needs to be fully explained.



This passage says we were dead in tresspasses and sins, not dead because we have a human nature which is sinful, or that we were born sinners. Again, this passage is twisted and misinterpreted to mean what it simply does not say.



Who says we have no sin? Nobody except the deceived.

These and other passages are claimed to prove the doctrine of original sin, and it's corollary, the doctrine of 'total depravity'. These passages however do not actually say we are born sinners, or that humans have a sinful nature birth. To interpret them that way makes the bible contradict itself. To understand them AS THEY ARE ACTUALLY WRITTEN, however, leads to no contradiction.

The truth of the matter?

Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. (Ecclesiastes 7:29).

And,

They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation. (Deuteronomy 32:5)

Eventually i would like to respond to all of this but for now please answer this one question.

If a person is not born with a sinful/defiled heart when does it become defiled?

[bbyrd009]

Didn't like God's answer, Luke?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Oh, I am sorry.
1) I believe that we are born into sin, and that this Law, of sin and death, makes your Q irrelevant. Please don't take that wrong; I just believe that the Q is now unanswerable in those terms. This is exactly what the Council of Trent did, was to parse the Law of sin and death, for nefarious ends.
2) When God himself has told me that they do; "I WILL no longer contend with man, who is evil FROM HIS YOUTH." I believe a person meets your description as soon as they commit their first conscious sin; strangely, most likely completely unconscious of the label or the consequences at the time.3) See 2.

I forgot that i had never responed to this comment and for this i apologize.

First let my say that i do love God's answer on this issue so much that i wil quote Him:

18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;

Mark 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Please note that before ever commiting any sin a mans heart is already sinful and defiled. If it wasn't in a persons heart it would not be done by that person.

[bbyrd009]

Amen to that. These necessarily address the 'since when' directly; and further refute the doctrine of OS, to me.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Amen to that. These necessarily address the 'since when' directly; and further refute the doctrine of OS, to me.

These showcase the doctrine of original Sim because they say before you ever sinned your heart was already defiled. This begs the question when was it defiled the it logical answer is crime birth by original sin.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Luke

Eventually i would like to respond to all of this but for now please answer this one question.

If a person is not born with a sinful/defiled heart when does it become defiled?

Jesus said that which defiles a man does not come from outside of himself, but from his heart. Therefore, according to Jesus, defilement proceeds from the heart. Notice, it proceeds from the heart and defiles the man.

10And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: 11Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? 13But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. 14Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable. 16And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? 17Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? 18But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Look at that again - "These are the things which defile a man:"

These are the things which defile a man:

These are the things which defile a man:

What are the things that defile a man?

"...evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies"...

These are the things which defile a man:

Adam's sin and guilt is not that which defile YOU or anyone else except Adam. According to Jesus Christ, the 'Final WORD on the subject', it is SIN which defiles a man.

Adultery defiles the man. Murder defiles the man. Theft defiles the man. Fornication defiles the man. Evil thoughts defile the man. Blasphemies defile the man.

SIN defiles the man, not only the outward action, but the inward 'evil thoughts' as well. THESE are THE THINGS that defile the man.

But according to the proponents of 'original sin', the man is already defiled before any such things happen! Before any evil thoughts ever appeared, certainly before any murders, thefts, fornications, blasphemies, etc ever transpired! The man was already defiled by Adam's sin. Thus, Jesus is in error, according to the doctrine of original sin, because He said it was the man's OWN SINS (including his sins of the heart, his 'evil thoughts') that defile him.

Jesus had the PERFECT opportunity to explain and expound and reveal to his disciples the doctrine of original sin in this instance. The subject was 'what defiles a man?' If you ask a proponent of original sin 'what defiles a man?' what would he say? If a teacher who believes that all men are defiled at conception by inherited 'original sin', and he was going to teach theology students and prospective evangelists and pastors on the subject of 'what defiles a man?' he could not fail to teach 'Adam's sin, called original sin, inherited at conception, intrinsic to the very human nature all men possess, defiles the man. For from the inherited sin nature of original sin proceed all the actual sins a man may commit. But he is defiled to begin with. He does not become a sinner because he sins, but he sins because he is a sinner! His defilement is not the result or consequence of his sins, but his sins are the result or consequence of his defilement!'

And such a one would be teaching 180 degrees opposite to what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself taught on the very subject.

How strange...

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Luke

These showcase the doctrine of original Sim because they say before you ever sinned your heart was already defiled. This begs the question when was it defiled the it logical answer is crime birth by original sin.

Hmm, that seems to refute God's own words, to me; "No more will I contend with man, who is evil from his youth." despite any hair-splitting @ 'youth.'

But I will say that your pov is almost universal, in this corner of the world, anyway...and again urge (you) to investigate the diff in the Law of sin and death and the doctrine of Original Sin. In the West, they are virtually inseparable, but the doctrine is unknown in the rest of Christianity.

And for good reason; although it seems insignificant, possibly even a semantics argument, turning the Law into the doctrine was a monumentally satanic achievement, whose consequences reverberate even today. Our society is just now becoming aware of, and rejecting wholesale, the results of the doctrine.

Christ rose, and lives!

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Esaias

...Jesus had the PERFECT opportunity to explain and expound and reveal to his disciples the doctrine of original sin in this instance. The subject was 'what defiles a man?' If you ask a proponent of original sin 'what defiles a man?' what would he say? If a teacher who believes that all men are defiled at conception by inherited 'original sin', and he was going to teach theology students and prospective evangelists and pastors on the subject of 'what defiles a man?' he could not fail to teach 'Adam's sin, called original sin, inherited at conception, intrinsic to the very human nature all men possess, defiles the man. For from the inherited sin nature of original sin proceed all the actual sins a man may commit. But he is defiled to begin with. He does not become a sinner because he sins, but he sins because he is a sinner! His defilement is not the result or consequence of his sins, but his sins are the result or consequence of his defilement!'...

See what I mean? Esaias attributes to Christ what was not even invented until like 1500 years later. The origin of the doctrine has been intentionally obscured from us, imo, and one cannot even have a conversation about the Law of sin and death anymore, with a Westerner...it's like trying to discuss prayer with a Catholic; Mother Mary keeps intervening

[bbyrd009]

"What defiles a man?"
You have made it "the fact that he was born a sinner;"
when Scripture says otherwise. This is a set-up, pure and simple.

[Esaias]

The proponents of original sin maintain that human beings are 'born in sin', that is, they are from their conception sinful and damned to hell.

Anyone who believes the doctrine of original, inherited sin, must therefore also believe the following:

1. All aborted babies are damned to hell with no opportunity for salvation.

2. All children who die before becoming Christians (say, at 1 years old, or 2 years old, or 3 months old) are damnable sinners, evil and disgusting in the sight of God, and deserving of eternal damnation - and assuredly damned to eternal damnation without any possibility of salvation.

3. No sinner can repent, or believe the gospel.

Let's look at that last one a little more closely, shall we?

If a person is condemned to hell because they are human, if they are sinful - not because they sin, but because they are defiled with the damnable taint of original sin - then regeneration MUST PRECEDE FAITH AND REPENTANCE. For, if the tree is evil, so is the fruit. Either the tree is good, and its fruit good, or the tree is evil, and its fruit evil. No man can serve two masters. In other words, according to Jesus, nobody can have a 'mixed moral condition'. No sinner can possibly be righteous at the same time. Nothing a sinner does can possibly be righteous. One cannot be partly good, and partly evil, at the same time.

Thus, even the prayer of unregenerated sinners is an abomination to God, and unacceptable. A sinner who repents, but who is still in possession of that taint of original sin, their repentance is abominable and unacceptable and is in fact SINFUL. ALL they do must of course be SINFUL.

So how does anyone get saved at all?

Why, God changes their nature! And THEN they can repent, believe, etc.

The Calvinists are entirely consistent on this matter. Original sin necessarily results in total depravity, and total depravity necessarily results in 'regeneration BEFORE repentance and faith'.

Furthermore, because NOBODY can 'come to Jesus' until they are FIRST regenerated by the power of God, and since not all men come to Jesus, but die unregenerate and in a state of damnation, it then necessarily follows that God only chooses to save SOME MEN. Thus, only some men CAN POSSIBLY be saved, and the rest CANNOT BY ANY MEANS WHATSOEVER BE SAVED.

And thus, unconditional election is the necessary result - which means God CHOOSES to save some men, and CHOOSES NOT TO SAVE THE REST. Which means God predestinates the lost to be damned.

Before they were even born, God decided He was not going to save them.

This is in turn necessarily means that NO PERSON CAN HAVE ASSURANCE OF SALVATION, because you cannot ever know if you are one of those people predestined to be saved, or predestined to be lost. You have no basis for believing your 'conversion' was genuine, or just a temporary 'religious expostulation of an unregenerate sinenr trying to assuage his conscience.'

And furthermore, because you cannot know if you are one of those 'chosen elect', chosen to be saved (as opposed to one of those chosen by God to be damned), you cannot have FAITH that Christ DIED FOR YOU PERSONALLY.

Oh, let's go a little further, shall we?

Since the saved are saved by God PRIOR to their repentance and faith, they are saved INDEPENDENT of repentance and faith. And therefore, their faith (or lack thereof) is IRRELEVANT TO SALVATION. Those chosen to be saved CANNOT POSSIBLY EVER NOT BE SAVED. 'Eternal security', once saved always saved, etc etc etc.

Those who believe in original sin, are either consistent Calvinists... or double minded and ignorant of their own doctrine.