Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Godzchild

Bro E,
Did u attend my Uncles church at one time? U look very familiar. When my husband and I went to the Adams family reunion that was headed by Angela and Paul, we traveled to the south to attend. We went to church that night as we had promised my Uncle BeBe that we would come. Seems like I have seen you b4. Btw....BIG turn out for the FR.....I had no idea there were over 368 of us Adams' + kin.....

I have been friends with the Adams for at least 25 years.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Bro?!

What?

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I have been friends with the Adams for at least 25 years.

I used to watch The Addams Family on tv. That and The Munsters.

[Jason B]

Lemon, thank you for taking the time to post and share some advice and speak of your own tough decisions.

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Brother,

Just a thought...going to a UPC church and being a licensed minister in the UPC can be two different things. Based on your walk with God and where you are at, it would be difficult for you to be licensed with them without a fair amount of dishonesty on your part.

If I go back I'm not too concerned with being licensed, I've seen a good many young UPC boys run around with a preaching license, but no calling to preach. I enjoy preaching, but I prefer to do so only on occasion. Twice a month is plenty for me, because I have a full time job (6days/55hrs week) and a family that needs some of my time, but it seems I always end up getting involved in teaching and preaching no matter where I go to church. I've never held a preaching license in any org, but that hasn't seemed to make much of a difference. I don't really care about the license, and can't see myself being licensed in the UPC anytime soon. BUT if I were, there would know exactly where I stand, there would be no dishonesty. I doubt I could go before the board without someone questioning me considering the things I've openly written about on the internet, and especially this forum. But that is fine with me, I don't bother believing things taht can't stand up to scrutiny and questioning, which is why I reject the absolutes of standards, initial evidence, titihing, etc. It'd make my day for some of these brothers to actually have a conversation on these issues. Thats one of my concerns about going back, is that some of the ministers absolutely do not want to have real discussions about doctrine, their tactic is to play the "authority" "anointed" or "you're rebellious" card. The difference in my now and 5 years ago, is that then I would give some rebuttal, but back down in intimidation. I'm not looking for problems, I'm looking for fellowship, but I've spent the last 5 years studying like no other, and I'd refuse to be intimidated by anyones dicator like abuse of authority. I'm perfect willing to be submissive, but not to someones personal conviction, only to the Word of God. Their welcome to their convictions, and I'll hold my convictions. I'll live honestly and with a clear conscious towards God and man, and if they don't want to license me, what have I lost anyway-its just a piece of paper.

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Having said that, I have no idea if that is your intent, but to encourage you if it is, the UPC is slowly changing and at least where I am at is more moderate then UC. I agree with Jesus Name baptism and the infilling of the Holy Ghost as you do.

And I'm encouraged by that. There are people I know who are licensed with the UPC who are very moderate, but they're someone fearful to be open about their views, I guess for fear of being disfellowshipped and shunned. If they took a survey of everyone licensed with the UPC and everyone was totally honest about what they believe (and if they own a TV!) then the org would have to become much more "mainstream" overnight. I hope this day is coming, but if its not, then I'll probably never have alot to do with the UPC anyway.

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I have two children as well, and have been a apart of the UPC for nearly 20-years. I have raised my children in this, but have insulated them from the clothesline standards, and have enforced modesty, but not a dress code. My children play sports, swim, own bathing suits, and dress appropriatly in 100-degree weather. I do not take my vacation annually to put them in church camp, we instead go to the beach.

Likewise, and I have zero intentions of changing these habits. Except, I don't even feel comfortable going to the beach.

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Personally, I feel you eat the meat and spit out the bones, as would be the case in any church, UPC or not. But if you are God called to preach or minister in any capacity, there will be a conflict between what you believe and what you will be expected to live, as well as what your family will be expected to live etc. So that does weigh into the decision in my opinion.

Well, my motive isn't to preach. If that were the case, I'd stay where I am, or even where I was in Arlington. I haven't believed some core doctrines in any of the churches I belonged to in a long time, but God always uses me anyhow. I can live with it, as long as I'm honest with everyone. Now I try to be respectful and not cause division, by not making it a point to emphasize and highlight my doctrinal differences from the pulpit, but I don't lie to people if I'm asked something. One reason I'm contemplating going back is taht I think my views are similar enough that I could possibly work within the framework of a moderate UPC.

Originally Posted by The Lemon

I have been in a transition for about 8-years now and have tried to give my card back to them once and was told by my pastor and district to hold off. I love the truths in the UPC, but not the all consuming role that "church life" has on an individual and family life. I have probably shared a little too much and maybe lost some credibility here, but I believe your decision is a weighty one, and I know what I have dealt with in leadership as well as what I have struggled with the last 8-years or so with.

You've lost no credibility with me. I appreciate your honesty.

Originally Posted by The Lemon

The desire to live right, and have a close relationship to Christ is fervant in my heart and spirit, so also, is the wanting to be an individual and not be controlled by the pulpit or the organization. It is both a blessing at times, and a battle at times...just sayin...

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Quick question:

Do your wife and daughter already look UPC for the most part? Or will you/they acquire the look again, or just when fellow church members are over so as not to create waves?

Thats a great question, because it could be problematic.

But for the most part they all still have "the look". Really they just dress modestly, normally in skirts (but not always), and have long hair (but not uncut). They were jewelry in morderation, but have no piercings. I don't have any desire for them to change any of that, but we'd be careful not to be needlessly offensive-so they'd make sure not to wear pants and jewelry at church.

Because of this I don't think it'd be a problem. Especially in a moderate UPC church.

PS-I think "the look" can be modernized. I don't at all feel like they look like they fell out of the Victorian era or an LDS cult.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

infiltrate the upc, lie if you have to about your beliefs (all things to all men) and change the borg from within. it is the only godly thing to do.

Bro. I have no intention of lying about what I believe. I've been posting on the internet using my real name for years (I just happen to be the only Jason Badejo in the United States and perhaps the world), so its all out there for anyone who wants to know. I've posted on David Bernards facebook page (using my real name) about some of their revisionist history.

Are you concerned that the beliefs of the UPC can't withstand a second look?

What do you say about that, Dedicated Mind, if that is your REAL name?!!!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Have you spoken to the pastor of the moderate upc fellowship and what does God say?

Actually the pastor knows of me and has expressed interest in meeting me. Up to this point I haven't pursued a meeting with him, but I imagine if I visit we'd have an oppertunity to talk.

I have been praying as always for God to lead me and help me in decision making. I haven't made a decision at this point, just been mulling.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I feel like your post could have been written by my husband and myself. We left the UPC about two years ago and have visited a lot of different churches in that time, as you have. And I was amazed to hear how you were turned off by the Word of Faith/Prosperity doctrine in the ex-UPC churches, as we were. It was sickening actually to visit some of these churches and see the prosperity doctrine in action.

So then we, like you, began going to some of the more Bible-based churches because their teaching at least was for the most part on target... except of course for the teaching of baptism in Jesus name, and Oneness, two doctrines that are so Biblical, and yet most of the church world refuses to acknowledge.

If we could have found a moderate UPC church that taught personal holiness standards without the cut/uncut hair doctrine along with the clothesline stuff, along with being post-trib (which has become important to us as we have studied the Word and saw that as a very important part of the Word), and understanding that giving is a biblical principle instead of tithing... then we would indeed feel like we could be a part of such a group.

Jason, as a minister of the gospel, could it be that God is calling YOU to start a fellowship in your own home that could eventually branch out, and become a more moderate church in your area? I understand your girls need fellowship... and that is our concern too about our teenage children, but God knows how to supply all our needs. He has done it for us.

This is what the Lord has done for us. We have house church in our home with two other families who believe in the oneness, Jesus baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost with personal holiness standards led by the husband of the home (and we have a new family visiting whom we are teaching salvation to having never heard this message before! So exciting!)

We get together to worship the Lord, fellowship, and share. Our children are able to share their thoughts and questions in the fellowship, and it has been a huge time of growth for us all. Sundays are the best day of the week for us, as we meet to eat a meal together (potluck) and then gather in our living room and sing worship songs, which include praise, clapping, worship, and a time or two, there has been liberty to dance unto the Lord... it has been a beautiful thing... and most of all... it is a Biblical concept that Acts embraces... and it works!

Feel free to PM me if you'd like to visit more about this. Again, I feel like I could've written your post! But the Lord is faithful to lead and guide us!!!

Thank you for your kind words. I've been asked about starting something, but I don't think I've got the drive to do that at this point of my life. I did start a work a about 5 years back, just before I left the UPC, but it fell flat, and wore me out. I'm not ready to go through that again. I'd rather minister occasionally when asked, and have time to further my studies at this point in my life. I'm still young (31) and my girls will be adults by the time I'm 40, so I'm not actively looking to start anything anytime in the next 10 years. If God calls me to do so, and really burdens me, I'd be obedient, but it'd have to be the Lord, because I really don't want to do that right now, or anytime in the near future.

Your groups sounds interesting, if I were in your area I'd be interested in visiting.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by CC1

Back to Bundage!

Buy your wife a long blue jean skirt, white socks, and tennis shoes and you are good to go!

On a serious note I wish you the best of luck and believe you need to be in whatever church you can plug into that preaches the truth. If it is a UPC one with a ton of extra biblical legalism then so be it.

I don't intend to be bound down with extra biblical legalism, and I believe myself studious enough to know the difference in legalism and biblical teachings of modesty.

Originally Posted by CC1

I will step out and make a prediction. While not true 100% of the time I find that most times people cannot go back. Once the house of cards has collapsed and you see beyond the extra biblical legalism it is hard to compress yourself back into that paradigm. Of course the shorter period of time you have been away from it the easier it is to return since the indoctrination / psychological conditioning will still be deep rooted.

And thats a concern. I don't know if I could go back. I'm open to visiting, but could I last a month, two months? At this time I don't know.

I certainly have ZERO desire to compress myself back into any sort of legalism or psychological conditioning. Which is why I have no interest in a UC type church.

[CC1]

Good luck Jason and God Bless! I consider myself very lucky that when I left the UPC in that both geographical areas I have lived in the almost 30 years since leaving I have had the opportunity to attend churches that were either ex UPC, pastored by ex UPC preachers, or in the one case of a church and pastor not with a UPC background one who baptized in Jesus Name as well as the titles each water baptism.

We went to a church for a few months that did not baptize in Jesus name and I just could not handle that. Great people and I believe they are saved but I also believe the biblical precedent for baptism is in Jesus name and while I don't consider it salvational I don't want to move backwards in doing and promoting what is biblical.