"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
And this does contain truth. MOST of the people that attend Church or claim to be Christians may well be what Jesus called "tares".
Seed planted by satan. They were never true Christians. satan was using them to confuse true Christians. They continue to sin because having not the Holy Spirit they cannot do otherwise.
True Christians see someone who is supposedly "saved" still sinning. They reason hmmm if they can do it and be a Christian why not me?
Many Preachers are tares also. They love to tell people "you dont have to be perfect". Exactly what the devil wants them to believe Then they no longer strive to enter the kingdom and just like Jesus said they wind up being shut out.
So the bottom line is only those who DO the will of God will wind up in the kingdom. This is taught everywhere in the Bible.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21
And I agree with you here also, as in this instance, the "seed" is from satan - "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way." Matthew 13:25
There is just to many plain scripture passages that clearly say that a person can be lost after haveing been saved. I see know way to build a scriptual stance without twisting scripture to make it mean what it never meant.
Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Hebrews 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, THEY MIGHT HAVE HAD OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE RETURNED.
I Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
II Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
II Peter 2:15 WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY, AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
II Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, THOSE THAT WERE CLEAN ESCAPED FROM THEM WHO LIVE IN ERROR.
II PETER 2:20 FOR IF AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE Lord AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
II PETER 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Instead of going back and forth about when a person's name is written in the book of life why skip over and not address the passage from Romans:
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Let's not just pick and choose our preconcieved proof verses, let's read it ALL, God has a plan and He is working it for ALL:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
God works in ages, some are LOST for that age, but ALL will be saved!!
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Everyone is going thru the Judgement seat of Christ or the GWTJ and the lake of purifying fire, so that the work of Christ undoing Adam is finally complete.
You really think Adam caused ALL men to be cursed by sin, and don't believe that Jesus undid all that??? The Son of God, is the perfect lamb for ALL men's sins, just as the high priests offering of a lamb in the Holy of Holies, covered the sins of ALL of Israel. We have been sold a bill of goods that demonizes the character, love and power of God Almighty.
God's plan is working thru the "ages", yes to save ALL Israel, as well as all the rest of His creation, I believe Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and the He IS the savior of 'all' men. 1 Tim 4:10
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
So you believe that Adolf Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, Osama bin laden and, Adam Lanza are going to be in heaven?????????? Read Romans 5:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This passage says many shall be made righteous.
Also if all are saved by the death of Christ irregardless of their chooseing to be saved or not then what is the purpose of the lake of fire are you saying that the blood of Jesus could not accomplish thier salvation and neede help? If so then it is you who makes the blood of Jesus weak and feeble. If the lake of fire accomplishes what the blood could not then which is more powerful?
So you believe that Adolf Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, Osama bin laden and, Adam Lanza are going to be in heaven?????????? Read Romans 5:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
This passage says many shall be made righteous.
Also if all are saved by the death of Christ irregardless of their chooseing to be saved or not then what is the purpose of the lake of fire are you saying that the blood of Jesus could not accomplish thier salvation and neede help? If so then it is you who makes the blood of Jesus weak and feeble. If the lake of fire accomplishes what the blood could not then which is more powerful?
Yes, the same many that were made dead in Adam, are the same many made righteous in Christ. These are parallel scriptures. Why can't we just believe what the Word says. Note carefully the bolded above. Jesue undid Adam, man is reconciled to God, he is not counting sins any longer, He simply is bringing all into His righteousness. "Each in his own time..."
God doesn't just create robots, He brings each individual to complete understanding and belief, but it is a process. "God is a refiners fire", what is so difficult about God completing what Jesus began at the cross, fire is used in this manner although-out scripture. Traditionalists read the Revelation, all about beasts and horses, and huge images, and say, "That's all symbolic, but then get to the "lake of fire" and suddenly it has to be literal. What's up with that??
Paul said he was the worst of sinners, so if God can save him, none that you list are a problem. Do you think any of us are deserving of God's free gift of belief, and salvation? Think we are just smart enough to understand, and get saved?? No, my friend it is all GRACE, and if it is earned in anyway it cannot be grace.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
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