I Found the Source of Irrational Fear of God

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

T. Talbott, philosophy professor at Williamette University:

According to Aristotle, there is a difference between revenge and punishment; the latter (kolasis) is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer, the former (timoria) in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction. Plato also appealed to the established meaning of kolasis as support for his theory that virtue could be taught: "For if you will consider punishment (kolasis)...and what control it has over wrong-doers, the facts will inform you that men agree in regarding virtue as procured." Even where a punishment may seem harsh and unforgiving, more like retribution than parental chastisement, this in no way excludes a corrective purpose.

Which one of them are a greek scholar and deals with the word appearing with aion as Zodhaites did?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

God has the power to rehabilate the devil, I believe will to that or annihilate him. I see no case in which God cannot accomplish His purpose and much resort to retributive of torture and revenge.

The question is though, since this verse is temporary not eternal, do you believe that the devil too will be redeemed someday or does he remain in the Lake of Fire forever?

"Aionian (eternal), when associated with God, may simply refer to that which comes forth from Him and relates to His purposes; a quality of essence rather that of duration. Is this not what our Lord intends in John 17.3: "And this eternal life, that they may know You"? If this is so, perhaps the Matthew 25.46 passage could be paraphrased this way: "And these will go away into the chastisement of God, but the righteous into the life of God." GB

In reading your posted references these words can have the meaning that is described above, if that is so, why does the church hang on to the more sever meaning. Why not the more purposeful meaning, that in my opinion better aligns with the power, purpose and character of a loving parent and/or Heavenly Father?[/quote]
The problem you might have missed is that this is not just an instance of the word aion. Rather it's

eis toús aiṓnas tṓn aiṓnōn, unto the ages of the ages

Let me repost that for you.

Zodhaites says
(3) The phrase eis toús aiṓnas tṓn aiṓnōn, unto the ages of the ages, being an intens. form meaning forever and ever (2Ti_4:18; Heb_13:21; 1Pe_4:11; Rev_1:6, Rev_1:18; Rev_4:9-10; Rev_5:13; Rev_7:12; Rev_10:6; Rev_11:15; Rev_15:7; Rev_19:3; Rev_20:10; Rev_22:5). Spoken of God (Gal_1:5; Phi_4:20; 1Ti_1:17; 1Pe_5:11). Without the art. eis aiṓnas aiṓnōn, unto the ages of the ages (Rev_14:11). Also in the expression eis pásas tás geneás toú aiṓnos tṓn aiṓnōn (pása, the fem. pl. of pás [G3956], every, all; geneás [the acc. pl. of geneá {G1074}, generation]) as in Eph_3:21 meaning throughout all ages and literally unto all generations of the age of the ages. Spoken of Christ (2Pe_3:18; Rev_1:18; Rev_5:13; Rev_11:15); of the blessedness of the saints (Rev_22:5); of the punishment of the wicked (Rev_14:11; Rev_19:3; Rev_20:10). In the Sept. the phrase eis aiṓna aiṓnos, literally means unto the age of the age (Psa_19:9; Psa_110:3, Psa_110:10).

If this word is translated age or world, then the fact that there are two of them means from age to age...that does not sound like an ending in sight to me

ISBE
In the New Testament, aiōn and aiōnios are often used with the meaning “eternal,” in the predominant sense of futurity. The word aiōn primarily signifies time, in the sense of age or generation; it also comes to denote all that exists under time-conditions; and, finally, superimposed upon the temporal is an ethical use, relative to the world's course. Thus aiōn may be said to mean the subtle informing spirit of the world or cosmos - the totality of things. By Plato, in his Timaeus, aiōn was used of the eternal Being, whose counterpart, in the sense-world, is Time. To Aristotle, in speaking of the world, aiōn is the ultimate principle which, in itself, sums up all existence. In the New Testament, aiōn is found combined with prepositions in nearly three score and ten instances, where the idea of unlimited duration appears to be meant. This is the usual method of expressing eternity in the Septuagint also. The aiōnios of 2Co_4:18 must be eternal, in a temporal use or reference, else the antithesis would be gone.

_______________
Now the question is if eis toús aiṓnas tṓn aiṓnōn can't grammatically in greek mean eternal in rev 20 then how can it mean eternal in those other verses and not rather a temporary condition?

Do we have eternal life, which is the converse of eternal death?
Why use the same words to describe what believers have forever for those that are lost if the words mean something entirely different? Isure hope I have eternal life, but perhaps nobody does...maybe it's temporary

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas;

Do we have eternal life, which is the converse of eternal death?
Why use the same words to describe what believers have forever for those that are lost if the words mean something entirely different? Isure hope I have eternal life, but perhaps nobody does...maybe it's temporary

I believe this previous post answers these questions:

"Aionian (eternal), when associated with God, may simply refer to that which comes forth from Him and relates to His purposes; a quality of essence rather that of duration. Is this not what our Lord intends in John 17.3: "And this eternal life, that they may know You"? If this is so, perhaps the Matthew 25.46 passage could be paraphrased this way: "And these will go away into the chastisement of God, but the righteous into the life of God." GB

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I believe this previous post answers these questions:

"Aionian (eternal), when associated with God, may simply refer to that which comes forth from Him and relates to His purposes; a quality of essence rather that of duration. Is this not what our Lord intends in John 17.3: "And this eternal life, that they may know You"? If this is so, perhaps the Matthew 25.46 passage could be paraphrased this way: "And these will go away into the chastisement of God, but the righteous into the life of God." GB

Not really...unless you intend to say eternal life is not lasting forever but is just a quality and not a duration, which then means nobody...no believer has any hope that they might have this quality of life for ages with out end.

Eternal life could be a temporary state if we are going by what you just said here. What sort of hope is that? In fact why stress that non believers will be purged, not spend eternal death in hell if eternal life with God is not a duration?

I think the lexicon sources and dictionaries I have posted offer a better explanation of the word and how it is grammatically used

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The question is though, since this verse is temporary not eternal, do you believe that the devil too will be redeemed someday or does he remain in the Lake of Fire forever?


The problem you might have missed is that this is not just an instance of the word aion. Rather it's

eis toús aiṓnas tṓn aiṓnōn, unto the ages of the ages

Let me repost that for you.

Zodhaites says
(3) The phrase eis toús aiṓnas tṓn aiṓnōn, unto the ages of the ages, being an intens. form meaning forever and ever (2Ti_4:18; Heb_13:21; 1Pe_4:11; Rev_1:6, Rev_1:18; Rev_4:9-10; Rev_5:13; Rev_7:12; Rev_10:6; Rev_11:15; Rev_15:7; Rev_19:3; Rev_20:10; Rev_22:5). Spoken of God (Gal_1:5; Phi_4:20; 1Ti_1:17; 1Pe_5:11). Without the art. eis aiṓnas aiṓnōn, unto the ages of the ages (Rev_14:11). Also in the expression eis pásas tás geneás toú aiṓnos tṓn aiṓnōn (pása, the fem. pl. of pás [G3956], every, all; geneás [the acc. pl. of geneá {G1074}, generation]) as in Eph_3:21 meaning throughout all ages and literally unto all generations of the age of the ages. Spoken of Christ (2Pe_3:18; Rev_1:18; Rev_5:13; Rev_11:15); of the blessedness of the saints (Rev_22:5); of the punishment of the wicked (Rev_14:11; Rev_19:3; Rev_20:10). In the Sept. the phrase eis aiṓna aiṓnos, literally means unto the age of the age (Psa_19:9; Psa_110:3, Psa_110:10).

If this word is translated age or world, then the fact that there are two of them means from age to age...that does not sound like an ending in sight to me

"Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself." Marvin Vincent

......so "from age to age..." simply means more that one age. Again why take the more sever view, when it violates the character of God, by making Him a
torturer?

I believe you get the point, you may not agree, but you see how it could be possible and not violate scripture. I simply believe this view is more in line with the character of God, it answers many unanswerable questions in my opinion.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Not really...unless you intend to say eternal life is not lasting forever but is just a quality and not a duration, which then means nobody...no believer has any hope that they might have this quality of life for ages with out end.

Eternal life could be a temporary state if we are going by what you just said here. What sort of hope is that? In fact why stress that non believers will be purged, not spend eternal death in hell if eternal life with God is not a duration?

I think the lexicon sources and dictionaries I have posted offer a better explanation of the word and how it is grammatically used

You miss the point, the terms do not define duration at all, they define quality. If God gives us His life it will be of infinite quality and be eternal as He is eternal. The punishment that God gives will be of the most infinite quality, punishment that is remedial and completely removes everything that is deficient in one's life, He removes the dross and chaff, that one will only be left with His life, that He created in the first place. Is this not the purpose of God? Or is it His purpose to burn up or torture that that He created? Remember His ways are not our ways, we destroy or cast off what we can't fix, God does not have that limitation, scripture declares He will redeem the whole creation.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You miss the point, the terms do not define duration at all, they define quality.

No I did not miss that point. I made a point based on what YOU said. I also disagreed with you that the term does not define a duration of time. Sorry, but my question still remains.

If God gives us His life it will be of infinite quality and be eternal as He is eternal.

How do we know that? How do we know He is eternal and How do we know He won't take it away since "eternal" or "aion" does not mean....well...eternal, but is rather a quality..Aren't you just redefining terms? All the lexicons and dictionaries I refered to says this word is a reference to time

In the New Testament, aiōn and aiōnios are often used with the meaning "eternal," in the predominant sense of futurity. The word aiōn primarily signifies time, in the sense of age or generation; it also comes to denote all that exists under time-conditions; and, finally, superimposed upon the temporal is an ethical use, relative to the world's course. Thus aiōn may be said to mean the subtle informing spirit of the world or cosmos - the totality of things. By Plato, in his Timaeus, aiōn was used of the eternal Being, whose counterpart, in the sense-world, is Time. To Aristotle, in speaking of the world, aiōn is the ultimate principle which, in itself, sums up all existence. In the New Testament, aiōn is found combined with prepositions in nearly three score and ten instances, where the idea of unlimited duration appears to be meant. This is the usual method of expressing eternity in the Septuagint also. The aiōnios of 2Co_4:18 must be eternal, in a temporal use or reference, else the antithesis would be gone.

The punishment that God gives will be of the most infinite quality, punishment that is remedial and completely removes everything that is deficient in one's life, He removes the dross and chaff, that one will only be left with His life, that He created in the first place.

How do you get that aion is a quality? How do you get that the word eternal does not refer to time but quality? Also the question still remains if we have eternal life and because it comes from God who is eternal, then we will live forever...why would not the converse be true of eternal death?

Is this not the purpose of God?

I don't think man is in a position to determine that God has a purpose. He instead purposes things for us. From what I am reading and what the lexicons show and the dictionaries and the grammar...there is eternal life...a duration of time (life is quality, eternal is time) and there is eternal death (same, death is qualitative and eternal is time)

Or is it His purpose to burn up or torture that that He created?

Once again you backtrack on me. Let me remind you that 1 we are not discussing torture or what punishment means. We are discussing length of time and destination. It was your assertion you made regarding threats of hell and I pointed out the bible WARNS of hell and eternal destruction. At issue is what is eternal.

Second, you are resorting again to the emotional card,. Truth is truth no matter what emotive appeal you try to attach to it. I expect an honest discussion from you. You seem like an honest person and I would expect that you want the truth and that truth is based NOT on what we feel, but on what the bible really does say. Over and over you go outside the bible and use emotive rhetoric like this. Let's just examine what the bible says and accept it factually. We don't need to pretty it up or anything. Right?

Remember His ways are not our ways, we destroy or cast off what we can't fix, God does not have that limitation, scripture declares He will redeem the whole creation.

That is your assertion. I do not agree scriptures declare He will redeem the WHOLE creation. We've been there and had this discussion. Why are we getting off the topic again?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

"Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself." Marvin Vincent

......so "from age to age..." simply means more that one age. Again why take the more sever view, when it violates the character of God, by making Him a
torturer?

I believe you get the point, you may not agree, but you see how it could be possible and not violate scripture. I simply believe this view is more in line with the character of God, it answers many unanswerable questions in my opinion.

See my above point regarding the emotive argument and the grammar. Im not make this up. My name is not ISBE or Zodhaites or Robertson. Also you first said "Eternal" or aion was quality, now you are saying it is time?

also since that is that word and neither of us seem to be going anywhere other than repeating ourselves, here is another word. How do you define this word too?

2Th 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Strongs says
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Thayers
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

[deacon blues]

crakjak please explain:

Luke 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

The fact there is a hell PROVES God loves us. Its the evidence that He gives us freewill.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No I did not miss that point. I made a point based on what YOU said. I also disagreed with you that the term does not define a duration of time. Sorry, but my question still remains.


How do we know that? How do we know He is eternal and How do we know He won't take it away since "eternal" or "aion" does not mean....well...eternal, but is rather a quality..Aren't you just redefining terms? All the lexicons and dictionaries I refered to says this word is a reference to time

In the New Testament, aiōn and aiōnios are often used with the meaning "eternal," in the predominant sense of futurity. The word aiōn primarily signifies time, in the sense of age or generation; it also comes to denote all that exists under time-conditions; and, finally, superimposed upon the temporal is an ethical use, relative to the world's course. Thus aiōn may be said to mean the subtle informing spirit of the world or cosmos - the totality of things. By Plato, in his Timaeus, aiōn was used of the eternal Being, whose counterpart, in the sense-world, is Time. To Aristotle, in speaking of the world, aiōn is the ultimate principle which, in itself, sums up all existence. In the New Testament, aiōn is found combined with prepositions in nearly three score and ten instances, where the idea of unlimited duration appears to be meant. This is the usual method of expressing eternity in the Septuagint also. The aiōnios of 2Co_4:18 must be eternal, in a temporal use or reference, else the antithesis would be gone.


How do you get that aion is a quality? How do you get that the word eternal does not refer to time but quality? Also the question still remains if we have eternal life and because it comes from God who is eternal, then we will live forever...why would not the converse be true of eternal death?


I don't think man is in a position to determine that God has a purpose. He instead purposes things for us. From what I am reading and what the lexicons show and the dictionaries and the grammar...there is eternal life...a duration of time (life is quality, eternal is time) and there is eternal death (same, death is qualitative and eternal is time)


Once again you backtrack on me. Let me remind you that 1 we are not discussing torture or what punishment means. We are discussing length of time and destination. It was your assertion you made regarding threats of hell and I pointed out the bible WARNS of hell and eternal destruction. At issue is what is eternal.

Second, you are resorting again to the emotional card,. Truth is truth no matter what emotive appeal you try to attach to it. I expect an honest discussion from you. You seem like an honest person and I would expect that you want the truth and that truth is based NOT on what we feel, but on what the bible really does say. Over and over you go outside the bible and use emotive rhetoric like this. Let's just examine what the bible says and accept it factually. We don't need to pretty it up or anything. Right?


That is your assertion. I do not agree scriptures declare He will redeem the WHOLE creation. We've been there and had this discussion. Why are we getting off the topic again?

"Augustine raised the argument (as you have,Praxeas) that since aionios in Mt. 25.46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases. However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject it refers. For example, when aionios to the duration of Jonah's entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Soloman's temple, it referred to 400 years. To God (and the life He gives), it encompasses and transcends time altogether. Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and it duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what "tall" is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abe Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God." () are mine.

Consider the following translations of aion.:

Young's Literal Translation: "punishment age-during."
Rotherham Translation: "age-abiding correction."
Weymouth Translation: "punishment of the ages"
Concordant Literal Translation: "chastening eonian."

BTW you keep referring to emotional response, the scripture says that the Word is "spirit" and "life". "The letter kills, the Spirit makes alive", so I have no problem adding the emotion of my born again spirit.