Would I Kill A Person?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The only way non-violence can do any good is if it eventually causes the heart of the oppressor to be changed. I fail to see how standing idly by as a person tries to kill me and my family will accomplish a change of heart in our oppressor. Without that person's change of heart what good was the stance of non-violence?

Again, no one is advocating "standing idly by". Why is it that if one advocates non-violence or not using lethal force people think we are to stand idly by and allow such evil to take place?

In WWII many Christians hid Jews in their attics and cellars. Many smuggled them out of the country. Many gave their very lives to save many Jews... without using violence.

A Christian can depend upon or use the following tactics without a gun or using lethal force....

*divine intervention - Depending on God to deliver miraculously.
*escape - Fleeing from the source of danger.
*ruse - Out smarting or using trickery to escape or to be released without injury.
*nonlethal force - Using non-lethal physical force to subdue an attacker to prevent injury to others including the attacker themselves.
*moral disarming - Speaking to the attacker with an appeal to conscience securing safety and release.
*martyrdom - Dying with the word of Jesus on your lips without inflicting injury or harm to the attacker.

The above measures can be used with skill and courage to mitigate a violent attack without using lethal force.

No one advocates doing nothing.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Chris is arguing that he would use other methods to stop and attack and not just stand around. I believe it is a valid position, however what do you think Jesus would think about a husband who had the ability to stop someone and didn't and it resulted in people (other than the perps) being killed? If you asked Him "Why didn't you step in and save us???" I am sure He would respond by "Why didn't you stop them yourselves? I put the ability in you!".

As Doc Brown once said, the future is not written. That person you shoot, whether they are killed or just injured for the police to haul away, may have gone on to do far far more damage to others if you did nothing.

The future is always debatable. The issue is "obedience". I believe that if people die as a result of obedience, including one's self, they died as martyrs.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Again, no one is advocating "standing idly by". Why is it that if one advocates non-violence or not using lethal force people think we are to stand idly by and allow such evil to take place?

In WWII many Christians hid Jews in their attics and cellars. Many smuggled them out of the country. Many gave their very lives to save many Jews... without using violence.

A Christian can depend upon or use the following tactics without a gun or using lethal force....

*divine intervention - Depending on God to deliver miraculously.
*escape - Fleeing from the source of danger.
*ruse - Out smarting or using trickery to escape or to be released without injury.
*nonlethal force - Using non-lethal physical force to subdue an attacker to prevent injury to others including the attacker themselves.
*moral disarming - Speaking to the attacker with an appeal to conscience securing safety and release.
*martyrdom - Dying with the word of Jesus on your lips without inflicting injury or harm to the attacker.

The above measures can be used with skill and courage to mitigate a violent attack without using lethal force.

No one advocates doing nothing.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Which of them resisted with violence? Which of them was willing to take a life? Note, Paul speaks of those who traveled with their wives... no doubt their entire family suffered the same or similar fate. Christianity... the crimsom path of martyrs. American Christianity has so lost it's way... it fails to see the path of Christ is stained with... blood. The blood of obedience.

Probably because you make comments like the bolded. Seems a little contradictory when considered beside what you just said in the red.

[Jay]

I disagree with you, Aquila. It is one thing to try to kill me for my faith, and depending on the situation (the legitimate government was performing the persecution), I would probably submit without struggle. However, if it illigitimate violence against me for any reason, I do view that it is incumbant upon me to defend myself, my family and friends, and my property. The Bible says that any man who does not provide for his family is worse than an infedel. I believe that also applies to the security of the family as well as monetary and emotional provision. If that regretably includes taking a life, then so be it.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Aquila,

Let me ask you simple question. All I'm looking from you is a simple direct answer relating to my question.

You said in your post that you have a family, wife, and possibly children?

Lets pretend you and your family are sitting in the living room and enjoying a movie. Two men smash through your front door and take hold of your family! You have a knife or gun at reach distance. You overhear these men state they're going to rape your children and wife, and then they're going to dispose of their bodies. Do you sit there and watch them take advantage of your family or do you try killing them?

What would you do in this situation?

Originally Posted by Aquila;1115923[B

]First, I don't believe God would ever let that happen. [/B]Nor would I justify the attitude of departing from Christ's teaching of not rendering evil for evil based on a "theoretical" situation.

I'd not use lethal force. Most likely we'd all die. I'd rely on God to see us through, even if the fate be death. However, the attackers will have heard the Gospel... and would have seen Christians die as Christians. No attacker has any authority over me or my family unless it has been given by God above. Therefore, let the greater sin be on God. Am I to ask where God is at a moment like that? Maybe He failed. Maybe He proved as wimpy and impotent as so many assume that He is. Maybe if I saw God like that... I'd reach for my gun.

Aquila,

I think it is naive to think that you might not ever be placed in this situation based on being a christian. There are plenty of rightous people who have had terrible things done to them by evil persons.

Your take on things reminds me of the old story told a lot of different ways about the man in the flood who doesn't leave when he has a chance before the water reaches his house because he says the Lord will take care of him. Then he doesn't leave when a neighbor comes by with in a boat, telling the neighbor that the Lord will save him. Eventually he ends up on the roof of his house as the water rose and when the National Guard rescue helicopter tried to get him he once again declined saying that God would take care of him. As the water topped the roof he was lost in the flood. The next thing he knew he was in heaven and there was the Lord. In a stunned tone of voice he told the Lord "I thought you spoke to me and said you would save me from the flood and now I am dead!". The Lord replied, "I sent a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want????".

If we take the stance that God is an interventionist that doesn't allow terrible things to happen to Christians then we are ignoring the terrible car wrecks that take beloved moms and dads from young children who desperately need them or young children from loving parents. Violent crime is something that can happen to anyone regardless of their spiritual condition.

Your logic could be used to not wear a seat belt, not stop at stop lights, etc if the Lord is just going to take care of us and it doesn't matter what we do.

As I stated earlier God clearly set forth his moral law in the Old Testament. That did not change from the OT to NT and it is clear God makes a distinction between just killing and murder or then God violated his own commandments by what he had the Children of Israel to many times.

[Jay]

Jesus Himself stated the commandment as 'thou shalt not murder.' And a study of that text finds that is exactly what was meant. People were permitted to kill in war and self defense, only murder was forbidden.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Jay

Jesus Himself stated the commandment as 'thou shalt not murder.' And a study of that text finds that is exactly what was meant. People were permitted to kill in war and self defense, only murder was forbidden.

That is exactly right. Now I DO pray that I am never in a situation where I am forced to "defend" myself or someone else by possibly taking a life in the process and am pretty sure it would haunt me for the rest of my life BUT I'm also sure not attempting to do something would haunt me even more.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Jay

Jesus Himself stated the commandment as 'thou shalt not murder.' And a study of that text finds that is exactly what was meant. People were permitted to kill in war and self defense, only murder was forbidden.

Yet in Early Church history the Christians did not retaliate and refused to fight for Rome...

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Yet in Early Church history the Christians did not retaliate and refused to fight for Rome...

Why though? Because of some moral obligation not to fight? Or because of some moral obligation not to fight the kind of wars Rome was waging?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by CC1

Aquila,

I think it is naive to think that you might not ever be placed in this situation based on being a christian. There are plenty of rightous people who have had terrible things done to them by evil persons.

Your take on things reminds me of the old story told a lot of different ways about the man in the flood who doesn't leave when he has a chance before the water reaches his house because he says the Lord will take care of him. Then he doesn't leave when a neighbor comes by with in a boat, telling the neighbor that the Lord will save him. Eventually he ends up on the roof of his house as the water rose and when the National Guard rescue helicopter tried to get him he once again declined saying that God would take care of him. As the water topped the roof he was lost in the flood. The next thing he knew he was in heaven and there was the Lord. In a stunned tone of voice he told the Lord "I thought you spoke to me and said you would save me from the flood and now I am dead!". The Lord replied, "I sent a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want????".

If we take the stance that God is an interventionist that doesn't allow terrible things to happen to Christians then we are ignoring the terrible car wrecks that take beloved moms and dads from young children who desperately need them or young children from loving parents. Violent crime is something that can happen to anyone regardless of their spiritual condition.

Your logic could be used to not wear a seat belt, not stop at stop lights, etc if the Lord is just going to take care of us and it doesn't matter what we do.

As I stated earlier God clearly set forth his moral law in the Old Testament. That did not change from the OT to NT and it is clear God makes a distinction between just killing and murder or then God violated his own commandments by what he had the Children of Israel to many times.

Why not? His ways are not our ways???? AMEN!!!?!!????!??