Question on standards

[Jay]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I lived in poverty most of my life. I mainly did not have enough clothes to change out everyday for a week. I washed what I had and wore them several times a week.

When I first started going to UPC, I had one dress to my name and one pair of shoes. I went to yard sales and bought more dresses. If I got more clothes, they were out of style hand-me-downs. Nothing wrong with that and I did not care. I considered everything that was given to me to be a blessing from the Lord.

Still, I never had an abundance of clothes.

Once there was a country girl that came to visit our church. One sister, whom everybody considered to be "spiritual" was talking about that country girls shoes. She said she was talking to her and when she looked down at her feet, she saw that the girl was wearing what looked like "mens running shoes" with her dress and said that she almost burst out laughing. That was my first indication in that just wearing a dress in church wasn't enough. I could not compete with some of the women who wore stylish clothes. But you know what? I did not want to.
I began to wonder what they thought about me wearing some of the clothes I had.

That is when you do not worry about them.

My parent raised us boys in Goodwill and salvation army during our teenage years. One of the best days of my life was when Mom and I went to Sears and Penny's for clothes for my senior pictures. Those were the first new casual shirts that I had had in 6 years. The reason was that we were poor and money was tight. I went to church with kids who wore Tommy Hilfiger, GAP, etc, and laughed at us because we had to buy at good will, or on a really good time, Wal-Mart. I remember Mom patching our blue jeans to make them last longer because we could not afford to go to Wal-Mart and buy new. I watched her make her blouses, jumpers, and skirts because that was the best that she could afford (she was very good with it too).


I am not saying this to take bash, but to say that I have stood on that side of the line. Being single, I can go to Wal-Mart for all of my clothing needs and not always be watching for the sale. I do not buy my clothes at Goodwill. But I remember those days well. I do remember being on the outs with nearly all of my peers because I obeyed my parents, respected my elders, and gave honor to the pastor, and that was in addition to being their laughingstock for not having fine clothes and the latest gadgets.


But I also remember gathering around our family table, every single member of the family in their spot. I remember game nights, and wonderful moves of God in church, where those who mocked got nothing, but I would be blessed. I remember learning to be content with what I had and not needing things immediately. I learned to stand, and in so doing, when the time came I learned that I had become strong.


You know what...I am still standing. I know of collapsed marriages, broken homes, children born out of wedlock, and worse of those that I grew up with. I and my brothers are still standing. Sure, things have not been easy, and they will never be easy. But I intend to stand until the day that God calls me home no matter how that occurs.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I lived in poverty most of my life. I mainly did not have enough clothes to change out everyday for a week. I washed what I had and wore them several times a week.

When I first started going to UPC, I had one dress to my name and one pair of shoes. I went to yard sales and bought more dresses. If I got more clothes, they were out of style hand-me-downs. Nothing wrong with that and I did not care. I considered everything that was given to me to be a blessing from the Lord.

Still, I never had an abundance of clothes.

Once there was a country girl that came to visit our church. One sister, whom everybody considered to be "spiritual" was talking about that country girls shoes. She said she was talking to her and when she looked down at her feet, she saw that the girl was wearing what looked like "mens running shoes" with her dress and said that she almost burst out laughing. That was my first indication in that just wearing a dress in church wasn't enough. I could not compete with some of the women who wore stylish clothes. But you know what? I did not want to.
I began to wonder what they thought about me wearing some of the clothes I had.

Are you still living in poverty or has your circumstances changed? I am not wealthy but I am blessed to have a very good job and a nice middle class lifestyle.

I remember a few years ago I was convicted about feeling like I didn't have enough after finding out that my utility bills were more than one AFF poster friend of mine had as his total income for the month.

[AreYouReady?]

No, I have not been in poverty since I found the Lord. Currently, I may not have a nice mid-to-upper middle class life, but I have everything I need. We manage on what money we earn. The Lord has always provided for our needs and that is more than what I could say from the age of 23 on down when I did not know Him. I do have much to be thankful for especially when I have faith that when a bill comes due, the Lord provides.

The gist of my post was not about what I did (or do) not have, but I was trying to make more of a point of how the poor are treated...well...differently in many churches than the mid to high end class are treated. The higher class had little to do with the lower class folks.

I am at a point in my life now where material objects mean little. When I buy an auto, I don't care if it doesn't look sleek, like a mustard or camaro. I just want good transportation that is good on gas mileage. I don't have to have expensive I Phones or Androids to talk on. I use a pre-pay cell and a landline.

It is wonderful that Jay had such a good family life. I envy you. You had wonderful moves of God, family meals, loving family time. A very good strong foundation.

It wasn't that way for my family. We were punished a lot for reasons that were next to nothing. I won't bore people with some of the asinine reasons we got punished. The punishment was usually severe and did not fit the "crime".

I was raised RCC and we were treated different there.

Nearly every kid in the neighborhood went to Parochial school. My mother took my brothers out of Parochial school and when it came time for me to go to school, I went straight to public school. The RCC did not like having to teach catechism at night for those of us who went to public school. Every catholic child must go through catechism classes to make their first Holy Communion and to be confirmed. There were only 7 of us and some of them come from other neighborhoods. We were treated badly and often times screamed at by the nuns who taught us the catechism classes.

I came to the Lord at one of the worse times in my life. Jesus is my hero! He led me to a UPC church. I was alone, afraid, nowhere to go and no family to help me. My closest family lived 300 miles away. To this day, we have no family get togethers. The apostolic doctrine that I believe separates my sister and I. She is bitter that I left the RCC and won't venerate Mary. She would chatter some nonsensical words, then tell me to "interpret" that. Then would not listen when I would try to explain to her that tongues and interpretation is not like that.

What makes me continue to believe God even though I no longer attend UPC? Because I know He lives. God put strangers in my path to help me get through some of the toughest times in my life. I had what I would describe as miracles happen after earnest prayer.

So, no matter how I was treated by some UPC members in the past, I still believe in the doctrine that is taught and what the good book says. Even though I don't believe in dress standards, I tell people that they need to go to a Spirit-filled church and seek Jesus Name baptism and the Holy Ghost. That is the right way to God.

Now, I said all that to try to get some Jesus Name people to think about people who walk through the doors for service. Some may have tattered clothes, ride in an old jalopy and stick a dollar or two or nothing in the offering plate. Some may smell bad. Some may be homeless. Some alcoholics. Some divorced mothers who have quite a few children. I've seen where some church members look right through these folks as if they do not exist. Some never speak to them...just wanting to raise some awareness...
and I think of James Chapter 2. It always gives me comfort.

[Sister Alvear]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

I lived in poverty most of my life. I mainly did not have enough clothes to change out everyday for a week. I washed what I had and wore them several times a week.

When I first started going to UPC, I had one dress to my name and one pair of shoes. I went to yard sales and bought more dresses. If I got more clothes, they were out of style hand-me-downs. Nothing wrong with that and I did not care. I considered everything that was given to me to be a blessing from the Lord.

Still, I never had an abundance of clothes.

Once there was a country girl that came to visit our church. One sister, whom everybody considered to be "spiritual" was talking about that country girls shoes. She said she was talking to her and when she looked down at her feet, she saw that the girl was wearing what looked like "mens running shoes" with her dress and said that she almost burst out laughing. That was my first indication in that just wearing a dress in church wasn't enough. I could not compete with some of the women who wore stylish clothes. But you know what? I did not want to.
I began to wonder what they thought about me wearing some of the clothes I had.

I do think we should look as nice as possible ...however I too am not competing with anyone...

[faithit166]

well as for me i know without a doubt that god led me to the upc church that had been in this town a very long time although i had never went their before ,my life life was totally changed i totally believe in jesus name baptism acts 2;38 and the standards why would god send me to a place that preaches the message just to not follow in with the standards thats confusion to me i believe when god does something he does it all i just want to please him

[CC1]

One observation I would make after 52 years of being in or around old time Pentecost (UPC in this case) is that I believe the extra biblical "standards" generally appeal to two types of people;

1. Those with very unstructured backgrounds who either consciously or subconsciously find comfort in the strict structure of the fellowship they are now in. Many times they see the legislated dress code as a line of demarcation to clearly make a break with their past. Makes things simple. Of course these churches are quick to jump on a new converts eagerness to leave things of their past behind by guiding them into the legalism as a way of doing this.

2. Those raised in a legalistic church atmosphere who are conditioned that their salvation is based on their following that legalism.

There are exceptions of course but those are the two main things I have observed over the years. There are other ones of course.

Let the fireworks begin!

[AncientPaths]

Originally Posted by CC1

One observation I would make after 52 years of being in or around old time Pentecost (UPC in this case) is that I believe the extra biblical "standards" generally appeal to two types of people;

1. Those with very unstructured backgrounds who either consciously or subconsciously find comfort in the strict structure of the fellowship they are now in. Many times they see the legislated dress code as a line of demarcation to clearly make a break with their past. Makes things simple. Of course these churches are quick to jump on a new converts eagerness to leave things of their past behind by guiding them into the legalism as a way of doing this.

2. Those raised in a legalistic church atmosphere who are conditioned that their salvation is based on their following that legalism.

There are exceptions of course but those are the two main things I have observed over the years. There are other ones of course.

Let the fireworks begin!

Nailed it.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

No, I have not been in poverty since I found the Lord. Currently, I may not have a nice mid-to-upper middle class life, but I have everything I need. We manage on what money we earn. The Lord has always provided for our needs and that is more than what I could say from the age of 23 on down when I did not know Him. I do have much to be thankful for especially when I have faith that when a bill comes due, the Lord provides.

The gist of my post was not about what I did (or do) not have, but I was trying to make more of a point of how the poor are treated...well...differently in many churches than the mid to high end class are treated. The higher class had little to do with the lower class folks.

I am at a point in my life now where material objects mean little. When I buy an auto, I don't care if it doesn't look sleek, like a mustard or camaro. I just want good transportation that is good on gas mileage. I don't have to have expensive I Phones or Androids to talk on. I use a pre-pay cell and a landline.

It is wonderful that Jay had such a good family life. I envy you. You had wonderful moves of God, family meals, loving family time. A very good strong foundation.

It wasn't that way for my family. We were punished a lot for reasons that were next to nothing. I won't bore people with some of the asinine reasons we got punished. The punishment was usually severe and did not fit the "crime".

I was raised RCC and we were treated different there.

Nearly every kid in the neighborhood went to Parochial school. My mother took my brothers out of Parochial school and when it came time for me to go to school, I went straight to public school. The RCC did not like having to teach catechism at night for those of us who went to public school. Every catholic child must go through catechism classes to make their first Holy Communion and to be confirmed. There were only 7 of us and some of them come from other neighborhoods. We were treated badly and often times screamed at by the nuns who taught us the catechism classes.

I came to the Lord at one of the worse times in my life. Jesus is my hero! He led me to a UPC church. I was alone, afraid, nowhere to go and no family to help me. My closest family lived 300 miles away. To this day, we have no family get togethers. The apostolic doctrine that I believe separates my sister and I. She is bitter that I left the RCC and won't venerate Mary. She would chatter some nonsensical words, then tell me to "interpret" that. Then would not listen when I would try to explain to her that tongues and interpretation is not like that.

What makes me continue to believe God even though I no longer attend UPC? Because I know He lives. God put strangers in my path to help me get through some of the toughest times in my life. I had what I would describe as miracles happen after earnest prayer.

So, no matter how I was treated by some UPC members in the past, I still believe in the doctrine that is taught and what the good book says. Even though I don't believe in dress standards, I tell people that they need to go to a Spirit-filled church and seek Jesus Name baptism and the Holy Ghost. That is the right way to God.

Now, I said all that to try to get some Jesus Name people to think about people who walk through the doors for service. Some may have tattered clothes, ride in an old jalopy and stick a dollar or two or nothing in the offering plate. Some may smell bad. Some may be homeless. Some alcoholics. Some divorced mothers who have quite a few children. I've seen where some church members look right through these folks as if they do not exist. Some never speak to them...just wanting to raise some awareness...
and I think of James Chapter 2. It always gives me comfort.

I have to say with your post here. I spent many of my formative years in a church that had around 75-100 saints. I saw people from different walks of life come in some had to be driven to church if they were going to come, some had cars that were falling apart, some had some of the best cars that had ever been seen (remember that I was between 12-18 during this time). I saw druggies with long hair, people on welfare and SSI, drunks, a pastor's wife from a large congregation, as well as many others pass through the doors of this church. I learned to not scorn those who did have much when the got right with God (not that I could feel that way considering that my shirts were Goodwill). There was a man who after he was delivered from drugs took nearly a year and a half before he wore a pair of dress slacks to church. It took nearly three years (if my memory serves) before he owned a suit. I still have my opinions on what makes for appropiate attire to the house of God, but I will not criticize visitors or brand new saints for not meeting those points; that will happen eventually.

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by CC1

One observation I would make after 52 years of being in or around old time Pentecost (UPC in this case) is that I believe the extra biblical "standards" generally appeal to two types of people;

1. Those with very unstructured backgrounds who either consciously or subconsciously find comfort in the strict structure of the fellowship they are now in. Many times they see the legislated dress code as a line of demarcation to clearly make a break with their past. Makes things simple. Of course these churches are quick to jump on a new converts eagerness to leave things of their past behind by guiding them into the legalism as a way of doing this.

2. Those raised in a legalistic church atmosphere who are conditioned that their salvation is based on their following that legalism.

There are exceptions of course but those are the two main things I have observed over the years. There are other ones of course.

Let the fireworks begin!

I have seen this again and again where those who jump feet first into the latest spiritual craze being the most susceptible to strong standards teaching. My wife has a friend who was an Catholic, atheist, Buddhist, and now a strong standards bearing AoG member (of our old church who still teach the "sex for procreation ONLY" doctrine). She is also the kind of person who has various Hillsong songs playing quietly in the house while gently asking God what she should have for breakfast that morning, or what His "will" is in the matter. She is one who would come on here and tell us in no uncertain terms that God TOLD her to throw away all her pants.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I have seen this again and again where those who jump feet first into the latest spiritual craze being the most susceptible to strong standards teaching. My wife has a friend who was an Catholic, atheist, Buddhist, and now a strong standards bearing AoG member (of our old church who still teach the "sex for procreation ONLY" doctrine). She is also the kind of person who has various Hillsong songs playing quietly in the house while gently asking God what she should have for breakfast that morning, or what His "will" is in the matter. She is one who would come on here and tell us in no uncertain terms that God TOLD her to throw away all her pants.

And you would question and oppose her on it?