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View Poll Results: What are your freelings the son's pre-existence?
I think the son existed only in the plan of God before the incarnation. 14 41.18%
I don't thing the son existed at all before the incarnation. 5 14.71%
I think that the son existed in some manner with the Father before the incarnation. 11 32.35%
None of these explain my feelings. I will comment below. 4 11.76%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:15 AM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
Per my current understanding the only "form" the son had before the incarnation was in the foreknowledge of God.
The Logos?
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  #52  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:16 AM
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Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley View Post
The Logos?
Yes. Berkeley you're pretty sharp could you explain the Logos to me please ?
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  #53  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:23 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by berkeley View Post
The Logos?
That is used by many and I don't have any issue with that.

My current stance is simply this.

There is one God... an invisible, all powerful and who is at all places at all times.

Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God. He was begotten of Mary and had no existence before that conception other than in the mind and plan of God who knows the end from the beginning.
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  #54  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:24 AM
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Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
That is used by many and I don't have any issue with that.

My current stance is simply this.

There is one God... an invisible, all powerful and who is at all places at all times.

Jesus Christ was the only begotten son of God. He was begotten of Mary and had no existence before that conception other than in the mind and plan of God who knows the end from the beginning.
I'll buy this.
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  #55  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:24 AM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

ya, sharp as a dull point.
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  #56  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:25 AM
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

No come on,I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
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  #57  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:53 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.
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...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)

Last edited by TGBTG; 11-09-2011 at 09:58 AM.
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  #58  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:32 AM
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Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
Elder Epley could you give us your definition of a theophany ?
Theo=God
phanies=appearances


God chose to make himself visible at times thus the word materialized in a form when needed then returned back to word. Thus the Logos was made visible. In the Incarnation the Word BECAME flesh not appeared as flesh.
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  #59  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:33 AM
Steve Epley's Avatar
Steve Epley Steve Epley is offline
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Posts: 11,903
Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
Ex 23

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him
22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

God's name is in this specific angel. God does NOT share his glory with angels or man, yet God's name is in this Angel.

1 Cor 10
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The person of Christ pre-existed as the visible form of God. God is Spirit and invisble, whom no man hath seen at any time.
His visible form (or self-revelation) is his WORD. So the WORD was with God and yet was God himself because the WORD is the visible manifestation of God. Hence, the WORD pre-existed with God.

1 Kings 19:9 And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?

But the WORD (visible manifestation of God) did not become Son until the incarnation. (John 1:14)

Now, because the person of the WORD is the same as the person of the Son, some then say the Son pre-existed. In a way, it's right, but, still not right.

It's like saying I became a Father in 2011. I, as a person, existed before 2011.However, me being a Father did not start UNTIL 2011. Same thing with the Word pre-exsiting before the incarnation, but became Son at the incarnation.

So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God.

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

We all know the actual crucifixion occured about 2000 years ago, yet it says he was slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Pet 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Eph 3
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

(The Sonship was hidden by God and only revealed 2000 years ago.)

The Son was foreordained before the foundation of the world. The Sonship was in the mind of God, but was manifested 2000 years ago. So the Word pre-existed, but the Sonship was in the mind of God

In summary,
God is the invisble, eternal Spirit, whom no man hath seen nor can see.
He (God) however, chose to show himself in a visible form to his creation. This visible form is called the WORD of God.
Thus, the WORD has always been with God, and yet still is God himself.
The WORD of God (God's express self-revelation) was made flesh which began the Sonship.
The WORD pre-existed, but the Sonship only existed in the mind of God.



So we see God come nearer to his creation step by step. He first becomes visible to his creation as the WORD.
Then, he comes even closer to us a man (the WORD made flesh ergo Son of God)
Then he comes in us as the HolySpirit.

God is INFINITE. We CANNOT quantify him. No sir. He has chosen to reveal himself to his creation in various forms at different times. Yet, he still remains the Infinite Almighty God.

No wonder he said:

Is 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God

Rev 1
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Jesus the Son of God is the exact imprint, visible self-revelation, of the infinte God.
Yes.
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  #60  
Old 11-09-2011, 11:14 AM
Light Light is offline
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Re: The Pre-Existence Of The Son

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson View Post
Well seeing that Christ was God manifest in flesh,certainly God had a form prior to the incarnation.If man was created in His image and likeness,that was a form man was patterned from it seems.
(KJV) Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
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