Official Stance of UPC?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

Wow, seriously?

What you are saying is that Jesus said, 'Hey Nic, unless you're a human that is born, you can't enter the Kingdom of God.'

I think it goes without saying that unless you exist you can't make it to heaven, and I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't so dimwitted as to state the blatantly obvious. You should seriously rethink your position on that verse.

There's more to it than that, if it is talking about natural birth that precedes new birth. Mankind was given dominion over the earth. No one nor anything else. That was the purpose for mankind's creation. Man lost dominion by choice in giving into Satan's temptations. Jesus comes back to resintate man to this KINGDOM position. Meanwhile, satan has usurped authority over mankind and ruled in darkness. So, Jesus speaks of getting back into the kingdom. First, you must be born naturally into the human race, which shows who alone is meant to rule the earth. Mankind. Secondly, you must be born of the Spirit and in relationship with God.

As soon as Jesus mentioned KINGDOM, a whole new light comes on the issue. Man's purpose -- not that of angels, nor anything else. Saying we must be norn into the human race to rule in the KINGDOM is a mouthful that involves all the theology of why man was created. It involves the underlying concept that satan, a non-human - had authority over the earth and should not have. The bible makes much mention of MAN given the earth, not anyone else. This would fit into that thought if it is what Jesus meant.

[Sabby]

Mike, that's a huge theological block of material, and I don't disagree with your points. As far as Jesus being so "dimwitted" as to state the obvious...
It was those that followed Him that were dimwitted. Jesus had to clarify his born again statement just in case Nicodemus didn't "get it"...That which is born of flesh is FLESH, and that which is born of spirit is spirit. Saying one is born again when they are water baptised AND spirit baptised is adding to the scripture. Jesus didn't say, the water "floweth withersoever it goesth", but rather the "The wind bloweth where it listeth...so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (note: if water baptism had anything to do with being born again, Jesus would have not been so "dimwitted" as to leave it out) Jn 3:8
"Hey Nic, NOW do you understand?"

[Sabby]

When a person comes to Jesus Christ, the first act they must do as a SIGN of their obedience is water baptism. This is not part of a spiritual "Birth"...since that has to do with an INVISIBLE kingdom.

[NorCal]

I think you guys need to take a look at your doctrine again. Being born of Water and of Spirit, is not something new.

1 Corinthians 10:1 - Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Waters AND Spirit baptism. Christ the Living Bread and Living Water. The Rock.

So when Christ said, "You must be born of Water and of Spirit" he meant what he said. There was no supposition there. It was a Fact.

God does not change! His plan has not changed, only his method of implementation! For He became our sacrifice, and now dwells within us.

It's amazing how many people think that the "New Testament" is something actually "New". Like some kind of new doctrine is brought forth.
That is a false assumption, for all Christ did was preach the Old Testament. The "New" is only that he fulfilled the prophesies.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by NorCal

I think you guys need to take a look at your doctrine again. Being born of Water and of Spirit, is not something new.

1 Corinthians 10:1 - Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Waters AND Spirit baptism. Christ the Living Bread and Living Water. The Rock.

So when Christ said, "You must be born of Water and of Spirit" he meant what he said. There was no supposition there. It was a Fact.

God does not change! His plan has not changed, only his method of implementation! For He became our sacrifice, and now dwells within us.

It's amazing how many people think that the "New Testament" is something actually "New". Like some kind of new doctrine is brought forth.
That is a false assumption, for all Christ did was preach the Old Testament. The "New" is only that he fulfilled the prophesies.

how were they baptized into moses? they were not submerged in water. infact they passed inbetween the water.

This is a like figure. i really cant equate water baptism to this.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by acerrak

how were they baptized into moses? they were not submerged in water. infact they passed inbetween the water.

This is a like figure. i really cant equate water baptism to this.

So you are going to blatantly deny what Paul said. I guess you would argue with Christ himself to justify your view point.

A wise man once said, "We all come to the Bible with suppositions, but we must read His Word, let the Spirit work, and then re-evaluate those suppositions."

I was raised in this Oneness, Apostolic Doctrine. Memorized all the verse, sayings and explanations. But it was not until The Spirit started working in me that I truly began to understand his workings.

The whole theme of God's redemption of Mankind was: Death, Burial and Resurrection. We die with Christ to our flesh, We are buried with him in water baptism, and we are Resurrected by the infilling of His Spirit. That has been the theme from Genesis to Revelation. Nothing has changed in his redemptive plan.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by NorCal

So you are going to blatantly deny what Paul said. I guess you would argue with Christ himself to justify your view point.

A wise man once said, "We all come to the Bible with suppositions, but we must read His Word, let the Spirit work, and then re-evaluate those suppositions."

I was raised in this Oneness, Apostolic Doctrine. Memorized all the verse, sayings and explanations. But it was not until The Spirit started working in me that I truly began to understand his workings.

The whole theme of God's redemption of Mankind was: Death, Burial and Resurrection. We die with Christ to our flesh, We are buried with him in water baptism, and we are Resurrected by the infilling of His Spirit. That has been the theme from Genesis to Revelation. Nothing has changed in his redemptive plan.

seriously explain it to me how were they baptized (submerged into moses) im not denying anything. I just dont see the connection to water baptism and the passing of the red sea.

i was raised outside of it. so i saw what God does in other churches outside oneness apostolic, which he blesses them just as much as he does any oneness apostolics


the thing is everytime some one sees the word baptism they think water baptism and this is not always the case

look at this verse

Luke 12:49-50 (King James Version)

49I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished

Jesus was already baptized in water. This was ceremonial. He did this as any priest of arron would have. they would be washed for service, The priest was annointed with Oil. Jesus recieved the annointing from the Holy Spirit. He done this to begin His ministry

Now we have this second baptism he talkes about which has complelty nothing todo with water.

So i am making my point that Just because the word baptism is used does not mean baptized with water. Moses and the israelites stepped across the red sea on dry ground, they were not submerged into water.

So there is a spirtual significance here

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by acerrak

seriously explain it to me how were they baptized (submerged into moses) im not denying anything. I just dont see the connection to water baptism and the passing of the red sea.

i was raised outside of it. so i saw what God does in other churches outside oneness apostolic, which he blesses them just as much as he does any oneness apostolics


the thing is everytime some one sees the word baptism they think water baptism and this is not always the case

look at this verse

Luke 12:49-50 (King James Version)

49I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

50But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished

Jesus was already baptized in water. This was ceremonial. He did this as any priest of arron would have. they would be washed for service, The priest was annointed with Oil. Jesus recieved the annointing from the Holy Spirit. He done this to begin His ministry

Now we have this second baptism he talkes about which has complelty nothing todo with water.

So i am making my point that Just because the word baptism is used does not mean baptized with water. Moses and the israelites stepped across the red sea on dry ground, they were not submerged into water.

So there is a spirtual significance here

Paul spoke in a figure, acerrak. In a figure they were immersed in water when they passed through the Red Sea. Paul used that as a correlation to our water and Spirit baptisms, since the whole point made was to compare what happened to them in backsliding can happen to us in our covenant. Paul picked things that relate to one another from both covenant experiences of Israel in Exodus and us. That is why he spoke of spiritual meat and spiritual drink, corresponding to the body and blood of Jesus. The baptism in sea and in cloud and spiritual meat and drink all corresponds between the Exodus experiences by God's power and particular experiences we have as Christians. And these are the BASIC experiences of every Christian life. These are what WE START out with as Christians just as Israel STARTED OUT with their corresponding experiences in the start of the Exodus. Paul is showing that just as they had what corresponds to OUR BEGINNINGS as Christians, but later lost out due to lusts, our beginning experiences do not guarantee we will not lose out later due to lusts and idolatry as well.

The whole point is LOST in corresponding the basics of Christianity with the beginnings of Exodus if we do not see the baptisms as corresponding to each other.

[mfblume]

It's obvious:

ADAM CLARKE:

1Co 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses - Rather Into Moses - into the covenant of which Moses was the mediator; and by this typical baptism they were brought under the obligation of acting according to the Mosaic precepts, as Christians receiving Christian baptism are said to be baptized Into Christ, and are thereby brought under obligation to keep the precepts of the Gospel.

JOHN GILL

1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses,.... "In or by Moses"; and so the Syriac version renders it, ביד מושא, "by the hand of Moses"; by his means and direction, he going before, they followed after him into the sea, and passed through on dry land, and came out on the shore, which carried in it a resemblance of baptism; when they believed the Lord, and his servant Moses, Exo_14:31 and gave up themselves to him as their leader and commander through the wilderness: and this their baptism was

in the cloud, and in the sea; which may be considered either as together or separately; if together, the agreement between them and baptism lay in this; the Israelites, when they passed through the Red sea, hid the waters on each side of them, which stood up as a wall higher than they, and the cloud over them, so that they were as persons immersed in and covered with water; and very fitly represented the ordinance of baptism as performed by immersion; and which is the way it was administered in the apostles' time, to which he refers; and is the only way it ought to be administered in; and in which only the Israelites' passage through the sea, and under the cloud, could be a figure of it: or this may be considered separately, they were baptized in the cloud; which was either, as Gataker (g) thinks, when the cloud went from before the face of the Israelites, and stood behind them, and was between the two camps, to keep off the Egyptians from them, which as it passed over them let down a plentiful rain upon them, whereby they were in such a condition as if they had been all over dipped in water; or their being all under the cloud, and all over covered with it, was a representation of the ordinance of baptism, in which a person is all over covered with water; and then they were baptized in the sea, as they passed through it, the waters standing up above their heads, they seemed as if they were immersed in it. Very great is the resemblance between that passage of theirs, and baptism. For instance, their following Moses into the sea, which is meant by their being "baptized into him", was an acknowledgment of their regard unto him, as their guide and governor, as baptism is a following of Christ, who has left us an example that we should tread in his steps; and is an owning him to be our prophet to teach us, and lead us the way; and it is a profession of our faith in him, as our surety and Saviour, and a subjection to him as our King and Governor. This their baptism in the sea was after their coming out of Egypt, and at their first entrance on their journey to Canaan's land, as our baptism is, or should be, after a person is brought out of worse than Egyptian bondage and darkness, and has believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and at the beginning of his profession of him, and entrance on his Christian race. The descent of the Israelites into the sea, when they seemed as buried in the waters, and their ascent out of it again on the shore, has a very great agreement with baptism, as administered by immersion, in which the person baptized goes down into the water, is buried with Christ therein, and comes up out of it as out of a grave, or as the children of Israel out of the Red sea; and as they, when they came out of it, could rejoice and sing in the view of their salvation and safety, and of the destruction of all their enemies, so the believer can, and does rejoice in this ordinance, in the view of his salvation by Christ, and safety in him, and of all his sins being buried and drowned in the sea of his blood; witness the instances of the eunuch and jailer. But though the Israelites were all in this sense baptized, yet they did not all inherit the land of Canaan.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul spoke in a figure, acerrak. In a figure they were immersed in water when they passed through the Red Sea. Paul used that as a correlation to our water and Spirit baptisms, since the whole point made was to compare what happened to them in backsliding can happen to us in our covenant. Paul picked things that relate to one another from both covenant experiences of Israel in Exodus and us. That is why he spoke of spiritual meat and spiritual drink, corresponding to the body and blood of Jesus. The baptism in sea and in cloud and spiritual meat and drink all corresponds between the Exodus experiences by God's power and particular experiences we have as Christians. And these are the BASIC experiences of every Christian life. These are what WE START out with as Christians just as Israel STARTED OUT with their corresponding experiences in the start of the Exodus. Paul is showing that just as they had what corresponds to OUR BEGINNINGS as Christians, but later lost out due to lusts, our beginning experiences do not guarantee we will not lose out later due to lusts and idolatry as well.

The whole point is LOST in corresponding the basics of Christianity with the beginnings of Exodus if we do not see the baptisms as corresponding to each other.

while i agree we should all be baptized. I do not for see water baptism being the sign of the covenant for the new testament. That is The holy Spirit.
The Promise of God. Every one who is a child of God will have the spirit of God.

and you shall recieve the promise. So if he was using this to explain the covenant I definatly would have went more to explain the Spirtual side than water baptism.

But again i still wasnt disprooved by any commentary that the word baptism equates to being with water, when it has many references with in the context of scriptures.