When You Got Saved in a Baptist Church ...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

You are right that they were disciples of John the Baptist. However, (a big however) is that when Paul asked them this question, he (Paul) thought they were Christians who already believed the gospel.

Notice the question:
Acts 19:2 (NIV) and asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”
Acts 19:2 (CEV) He asked them, “When you put your faith in Jesus, were you given the Holy Spirit?”
Acts 19:2 (AMP) And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ

This is in exact line as what happened to the Samaritan believers in Acts 8

Thus proving a person's 'belief in Christ' may be defective, if it doesn't result in receiving the holy Spirit.

WHICH MEANS that Paul's viewpoint was 'let's verify you are a Christian by whether or not you received the Holy Spirit' as opposed to the common 'evangelical Protestant' paradigm of 'let's verify you have the Holy Spirit by whether or not you are a Christian'.

Subtle, perhaps, but an IMPORTANT difference.

[Esaias]

Also, there is no evidence Paul THOUGHT or believed those Ephesian 'disciples' were CHRISTIANS.

He asked them 'did you receive the Spirit when you believed?' in order to DETERMINE if they were, in fact, disciples of JESUS as opposed to John or some other school or group.

[Esaias]

From the whole context, it seems these were disciples of John, who perhaps HAD heard about Jesus being resurrected, but had not heard about the outpouring of the Spirit, and who had been AWOL when the apostles and company were out and about baptising people in the Lord's name.

Thus, they say 'we haven't heard whether there be any Holy Ghost' and the fact they had to be baptised into the name of the Saviour instead of being left behind with John's baptism.

In any event, they weren't Christians. They had not been baptised in Jesus' name. They had not received the Holy Spirit. After meeting the apostle, they were Jesus name baptised Holy Ghost-filled Christians.

A pattern we should stick to, imo.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Thus proving a person's 'belief in Christ' may be defective, if it doesn't result in receiving the holy Spirit.

WHICH MEANS that Paul's viewpoint was 'let's verify you are a Christian by whether or not you received the Holy Spirit' as opposed to the common 'evangelical Protestant' paradigm of 'let's verify you have the Holy Spirit by whether or not you are a Christian'.

Subtle, perhaps, but an IMPORTANT difference.

I think you are stretching that scripture beyond what it says. Paul was not trying to "verify if they were Christians." It was a simple question, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed the gospel?

Let's look at the immediate context of Paul's journey before getting to Acts 19

Acts 18
18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sisters and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchreae because of a vow he had taken. 19 They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. 20 When they asked him to spend more time with them, he declined. 21 But as he left, he promised, “I will come back if it is God’s will.” Then he set sail from Ephesus. 22 When he landed at Caesarea, he went up to Jerusalem and greeted the church and then went down to Antioch.
23 After spending some time in Antioch, Paul set out from there and traveled from place to place throughout the region of Galatia and Phrygia, strengthening all the disciples.

Acts 19
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

If we read the whole passage in context, we get:
1. Paul set out for Ephesus
2. Paul was going about STRENTHGENING the disciples
3. Paul met some disciples in Ephesus
4. Paul asked these group of disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit after believing the gospel?

The same Paul who said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved is the one who asked if they had received the Holy Ghost after believing?
This shows to me that receiving the Holy Ghost baptism is POST SALVATION.

My thoughts anyhow...

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Also, there is no evidence Paul THOUGHT or believed those Ephesian 'disciples' were CHRISTIANS.

He asked them 'did you receive the Spirit when you believed?' in order to DETERMINE if they were, in fact, disciples of JESUS as opposed to John or some other school or group.

Actually, the evidence is in Acts 18. He was going about strengthening the disciples (Acts 18:23). Acts 19 tells us what exactly he was doing to strengthen the disciples.

It just happened that these set of disciples he encountered had not received the gospel of Christ

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

I think you are stretching that scripture beyond what it says. Paul was not trying to "verify if they were Christians." It was a simple question, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed the gospel?

Let's look at the immediate context of Paul's journey before getting to Acts 19

Acts 18
18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sisters and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchreae because of a vow he had taken. 19 They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews. 20 When they asked him to spend more time with them, he declined. 21 But as he left, he promised, “I will come back if it is God’s will.” Then he set sail from Ephesus. 22 When he landed at Caesarea, he went up to Jerusalem and greeted the church and then went down to Antioch.
23 After spending some time in Antioch, Paul set out from there and traveled from place to place throughout the region of Galatia and Phrygia, strengthening all the disciples.

Acts 19
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?”

If we read the whole passage in context, we get:
1. Paul set out for Ephesus
2. Paul was going about STRENTHGENING the disciples
3. Paul met some disciples in Ephesus
4. Paul asked these group of disciples if they had received the Holy Spirit after believing the gospel?

The same Paul who said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved is the one who asked if they had received the Holy Ghost after believing?
This shows to me that receiving the Holy Ghost baptism is POST SALVATION.

My thoughts anyhow...

Ah, look what you done!

You said "It was a simple question, have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed the gospel?"

Then you concluded with "This shows to me that receiving the Holy Ghost baptism is POST SALVATION."

See that?

Paul asked 'Did you receive the Spirit' but in your mind you read that as 'did you receive the Spirit baptism'.

According to the Bible, those disciples had not received the Holy Spirit. Can one receive salvation, be saved, and not have received the Holy Spirit?

Many believe that a person 'believes' on Jesus, as an intellectual, internal, mental event, and then BLAMMO at that instant they are 'saved'... and have the 'Spirit dwelling in them'. Which of course means they 'received the Holy Spirit' (you can't have what you did not RECEIVE). And then, later on, if they are feeling up to it, they can receive the 'holy spirit baptism' as a SECOND EVENT. But this is not Biblical!

Paul was not asking if they had received the Holy Spirit baptism, as THOUGH such an experience was SEPARATE from becoming a Christian. As I said earlier, he did not ask 'have you received the Second Work of Grace' which is essentially what you have him asking, in your understanding.

People hear the gospel, believe the gospel, as demonstrated by public confession of Jesus (as part of the baptism experience), and receive the Holy Spirit - the PENTECOSTAL experience, the 'Pentecostal baptism'.

It is not a second post-salvation event, it is part and parcel of salvation. It is not an optional thing for the 'super spiritual' IT IS BIBLE CHRISTIANITY.

It is 'gettin' saved the old time way'.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Actually, the evidence is in Acts 18. He was going about strengthening the disciples (Acts 18:23). Acts 19 tells us what exactly he was doing to strengthen the disciples.

It just happened that these set of disciples he encountered had not received the gospel of Christ

He was strengthening the disciples, who were ALREADY CHRISTIANS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and came across some more disciples in Ephesus. His interaction with them led him to wonder... 'I wonder if these guys have the Holy Ghost...?' so he asks them - 'Did you receive the spirit when you believed?' They said we don't know such a thing is possible. So he's like 'well, goodness gracious, what were you baptised into, then?' They said John's baptism. AHA!!! There's the problem! So he preaches Jesus to them, they get baptised in Jesus name, and he prays for them, lays hands on them, and they get the Holy Spirit in the Pentecostal way.

And the First Baptist Church of Ephesus changes it's name to First Apostolic Pentecostal Deliverance Church of Ephesus!!

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

He was strengthening the disciples, who were ALREADY CHRISTIANS FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and came across some more disciples in Ephesus. His interaction with them led him to wonder... 'I wonder if these guys have the Holy Ghost...?' so he asks them - 'Did you receive the spirit when you believed?' They said we don't know such a thing is possible. So he's like 'well, goodness gracious, what were you baptised into, then?' They said John's baptism. AHA!!! There's the problem! So he preaches Jesus to them, they get baptised in Jesus name, and he prays for them, lays hands on them, and they get the Holy Spirit in the Pentecostal way.

And the First Baptist Church of Ephesus changes it's name to First Apostolic Pentecostal Deliverance Church of Ephesus!!

Even your statement PROVES that Paul was interacting with them as BELIEVERS. His interaction with them led to the question.

On the other hand, how many "apostolics" today would interact with baptists as believers and then ask if they have received the Holy Ghost?...

[Farfel]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Even your statement PROVES that Paul was interacting with them as BELIEVERS. His interaction with them led to the question.

On the other hand, how many "apostolics" today would interact with baptists as believers and then ask if they have received the Holy Ghost?...

Baptists? Believers? Blasphemy!

[renee819]

Remember, Acts 19, is 20 yrs after Pentecost and Paul is preaching the same Gospel that Peter preached.

OK, lets look at the Ephesians.

They were Believers, in that they believed in Jesus. How do we know? Go to Acts 18.

Acts 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

(Apollos, taught "diligently the things of the Lord," but he only knew the baptism of John.)

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

I wonder what Aquila and Priscilla taught him. Apollos knew the way of the Lord so he evidently taught them to repent. Aquila and Priscilla were workers with Paul, so they would only teach the same as Paul. And then we see Apollos accepted their teaching, writing letters to the brethren to receive him.

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ

And then,

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

(Where Apollos had taught)

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.


(Paul asked, "Since ye believed." These were believers in Jesus. But they had not received the Holy Ghost,)

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied

Paul believed
1. Repent
2. Be baptized in Jesus name
3. Receive the Holy Ghost

Just as the Samaritans, had repented. Been baptized in Jesus name and had not received the Holy Ghost.

If they had already received the Holy Ghost, what was the sense of these verses? If they were already saved, then why did Peter and John come to pray for them to receive the Holy Ghost.

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

(The Word of God. They had repented and been baptized in Jesus name. But that is not all of the Word of God.)

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Why did Luke say that the Holy Ghost had fallen on none of them, if they received it when they believed. And this was just a second blessing. Why can we not find people in the Book of Acts, (the only book that tells people how to be saved) receiving a first and second blessing?

There is only one way to receive the Holy Ghost and we are told about it in several places. Which many want to gloss over the plain scripture, to teach a false doctrine.

Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Some will say, truthfully, this is about false teachers, trying to bring the Law into Chrisianity. And that is true.

However, notice, "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed"

And, "if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

What had Paul preached. Repent, be baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Ghost. and when they received it, they spoke in Other Tongues. not as a second blessing. But The Gospel of Salvation.