James Kilgore's Part in the 92 Affirmation Debacle

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I used to sign it with the same perspective. I always felt disengenuious about it but justified it in my mind by telling myself, "No one obeys the manual to the letter of the law." I would still feel miserable signing it and mailing it in.

Then a few years ago, we started getting grief from a local pastor and his son in law over the fact that our music minister's wife had been seen wearing jeans in public. Our MM and his wife were invited by the district to do the music at the annual holiday youth convention. This pastor or his son in law played politics and "ratted" on our MM wife for her jean wearing. The district deemed that our MM would be "too divisive" to use for the youth convention and withdrew their invitation.

This was after a summer youth camp where our guy was doing music and a controversy concerning his wife's hair being cut. An "anonymous tipster" called the youth president and told him about it. 5 minutes before service the youth president tells my guy he can't do the music.

Okay. I understand the rules. And if they were applied consistently and fairly I could agree to disagree with the rules but feel like at least they are equitable about their application. But this sint the case.

I knew for a fact that this son-in-law routinely goes to organized and professional sporting events. I know this pastor goes to professional sporting events. I know they watch TV, I know they purchase and watch DVD sets of TV shows that I won't watch because of content. They have a family night where they get together with their adult children and spouses and watch these shows, and they're giddy about it. They just LOVE their shows.

But come campmeeting time, who's choir is singing on the platform? Who's sitting on the platform receiving the offering? Who is helping to run the youth camps and is camp director? You guessed it. When my District Supt met me for lunch one day, he asked me why we weren't as involved as we used to be. I told him the stories. He admitted that the manual was applied inconsistently.

The real problem is that the guys with the big churches, or the right connections, friends, family, the guys who command a lot of money and send in large sums to support the ministries of the organization get a pass on all the ways they violate the manual. Blue collar preachers with smaller congregations, or people without the names, or the political influence are held to a higher standard.

There are preachers who are very high office holders that go to the sporting events, watch every kind of DVD movie out there, TV shows, some own televisions or watch it on the internet, they break as many rules as anyone. But they are safe because of the system they are a part of protects them from scrutiny. As long as the women's standards (holy magic hair, dresses, make up, jewels) and any other outward appearance standards are maintained (beards, shorts, etc---keeping up appearances), you can get a pass on these other things.

I signed my last AS in 2009. As I drove away from the post office I asked God to forgive me for my dishonesty. I vowed to Him I would never sign another one.

I remember Bro Kilgore standing up at a GC, it might have been in Columbus when there was a resolution to remove the AS. He made the statement that the AS made too many liars out of too many people and requested we vote to remove the AS from our fellowship. It wasn't enough to convince the constituency to remove it. Unfortunate.

What an interesting story. So true on many levels. I'm curious though deacon if this also compelled you to examine the acts 2:38 plan of salvation and the oneness of God? It seems that when people see descrepanies in standards, that an alarm code goes up to examine everything that was once deemed Biblically correct. I did but I was able to come to terms on the beliefs and my conscience and stay. I'm glad I did.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

... I haven't always been this way, perhaps you were so this is coming from a different perspective of one who had almost decided to leave, but was led to stay.

Could you tell us what "led" you to stay?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

I too was in that meeting in '92.

It was the first business meeting that I attended since E.E. McNatt of Memphis made a big stink in a business meeting in Little Rock in 1957. It was so ugly that I had purposed to never attend another UPCI business meeting. ...

what was that mess in 1957? if you can go into it without derailing this thread?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Sam

Could you tell us what "led" you to stay?

Study of reaffirming what the scriptures say and why the apostolic church teaches what they do ( I explored the spirit of the doctrine rather than the letter) and the Lord in prayer and provocation of His Spirit.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by CC1

...By actively urging preachers to lie by signing something they were not going to uphold this was a terrible chip in the wall of ethics. You keep chipping and eventually there will be no wall.

But wasn't that what the January 18,1993 NAU letter promoted?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Study of reaffirming what the scriptures say and why the apostolic church teaches what they do ( I explored the spirit of the doctrine rather than the letter) and the Lord in prayer and provocation of His Spirit.

Amen!

[deacon blues]

One Faith,

I never embraced the standards of the UPC as a matter of salvation. My pastor was a Dist Supt. Growing up I always believed we maintained them for the sake of unity and for the fact that our pastor was a leader and we needed to set an example. Being a male, most of the standards didn't impact my daily life much anyway. My parents didn't enforce them at home in a "do it or go to hell" manner. Again it was about thinking of the sensibilities of others. I was pretty straightline A238 for most of my ministry, but always had some measure of doubt over the years. I was never comfortable believing we were the only ones going to heaven. I would see scriptures that contradicted the theology but would dismiss them because I viewed everything with UPCI colored glasses. About 2001 the Lord began to really deal with me about salvation. I slowly began to shift away from "speak in tongues so you can go to heaven" to "confess your sins", "believe on the Lord Jesus", "call upon the name of the Lord", "repent". I prwach the grace of God more than ever. I preach the finished work of the cross more than ever. I preach trusting the Lord, placing faith in His salvation more than ever. It has been eye opening, liberating and peace giving.

I believe that many people in the UPC are a part of the Body of Christ. Many of them will be in heaven. I just can't be a part of that system anymore. I wouldn't be honest if I remained.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

...I believe that many people in the UPC are a part of the Body of Christ. Many of them will be in heaven. I just can't be a part of that system anymore. I wouldn't be honest if I remained.

AMEN

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

One Faith,

I never embraced the standards of the UPC as a matter of salvation. My pastor was a Dist Supt. Growing up I always believed we maintained them for the sake of unity and for the fact that our pastor was a leader and we needed to set an example. Being a male, most of the standards didn't impact my daily life much anyway. My parents didn't enforce them at home in a "do it or go to hell" manner. Again it was about thinking of the sensibilities of others. I was pretty straightline A238 for most of my ministry, but always had some measure of doubt over the years. I was never comfortable believing we were the only ones going to heaven. I would see scriptures that contradicted the theology but would dismiss them because I viewed everything with UPCI colored glasses. About 2001 the Lord began to really deal with me about salvation. I slowly began to shift away from "speak in tongues so you can go to heaven" to "confess your sins", "believe on the Lord Jesus", "call upon the name of the Lord", "repent". I prwach the grace of God more than ever. I preach the finished work of the cross more than ever. I preach trusting the Lord, placing faith in His salvation more than ever. It has been eye opening, liberating and peace giving.

I believe that many people in the UPC are a part of the Body of Christ. Many of them will be in heaven. I just can't be a part of that system anymore. I wouldn't be honest if I remained.

I understand what you are saying. You must know that I preach these things also and have found peace to do so while embracing Acts 2:38. The only way I did it was to search out the spirit of the doctrine that we teach (being the full standard plan of salvation) rather than the letter and the judgements thereof. Some places you couldn't fit well with what I'm describing because every service is condemning all other denominations and the letter is the only thing there. But there is a truth involved with acts 2:38 and that spirit of truth prevails in my heart, while I embrace all that you said for that is the gospel of peace. If apostolics don't place their faith in Christ for their salvation and His continual work in them, all the works they do are for nought because you then depend on yourself and not the drawing of the Lord Himself.

I appreciate your honesty but I wish many more found the road that I have because there really is a blessing here where many of the old landmarks need not to be overturned, for the sake of conscience or personal resolve.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Sam

what was that mess in 1957? if you can go into it without derailing this thread?

As I recall, a television station had proposed to bring in their t.v. cameras and televise the G.C. night services free of charge. That proposal was rejected by some, others wanted to allow it since it was free. I don't rightly recall which side of the fence that E. E. McNatt, a prominent Memphis Pastor was on, since as a kid, it didn't matter to me one way or the other. I only remember the stink that Pastor McNatt made over the issue.

I recall later discussing this big issue with Dottie Rambo during one of her concerts later that same year. She was appalled that the UPC let, what she thought was a great opportunity, be lost...especially since every night of the conference would have been televised for free.

That's really all I can recall. At the time the issue was not important to me but the ugly spirit between certain ones deeply impressed me in a negative way. Now that I settled into a conservative conviction against the world and all forms of worldliness, I am happy that the UPC took a stand against t.v. even then.

It was during that same business session that I recall Brother Stanley Chambers, (I believe it was) told of buying a television back in the late 1940s or early 50s. He said that one day while watching that thing he felt conviction against it grip his heart. Behind his house there was a downward sloping hill. He took the television to the brow of the slope and tossed it down the hill and watched it roll away out of his life once and for all. That particularly impressed me and I have never forgotten it. GOD BLESS THE MEMORY OF ELDER CHAMBERS AND HIS GODLY CONVICTIONS.