Where is the five fold ministry?

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

well well. we got a nerve going huh? lol... the answer to your 1st question is neither lol how you like that one .. i make very well on my own ,, they do pay however my cell bill since they run it up lol.
however i do feel the tithes is the resposibility of the pastor to receive , in comes into my hands ,i put into the treasury since i am my own secretary ..we are fixing to build a new building as ours is full. to go further also tho. i do take the ministers out to eat here and there and give them money out of the ministry fund before they take vacations as they are part of my work.
i help widows and other in need also with the same money!

i preach to the saints at church to guide and direct them to help them to help others ,, thats why we have a growing problem. you get folks saved in church full of faith and power and send them into a world that needs it ,, comeback to church ,, the next service ,, get pumped back up ,, go find some more!the church is a filling station for faith and power. a motivation place ,to rev the engine up at ,,

most of JESUS miracles took place outside of church!

I'm enjoying the conversation here! Just a note to drummer.. the apostles remained in their office all their lives. Its not true that it only remained when the need for it was there.

[Godsdrummer]

Pastor Rick

Well I had to ask the question, LOL or I would not know what you did. Right. As for finding a nerve? Well I just have several soap boxes that I have developed in the last 6 years. LOL

Some times my questions don't come accross right and others take offence but ask I will because if one does not ask they will never learn. Whick is why I am so discusted with the way things have gotten with the teaching and preaching of the word of God. There is no room for discusion, the preacher/pastor preaches the saints listen and if you don't agree you can ask after service. What are we so insicure in what we preach we can't discuse together what is being taught before everyone? maybe other might have the same question but are afraid to ask. But no we don't feel like we have done our job if we don't deliver the whole point that we have studied out.

Sorry here I go getting on another soap box. LOL

So let me line up what and how I see the ministry,

Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

The first thing we see is the teaching of Jesus, he is our example, and as he served so do we serve each other. Not the verse 25, how do we get around this teaching? We shall not be like them. We disquise this lordship as perfecting the saints, quoting the mistraslation of the word in Ephesians. Or sitting as a lookout on the wall in Hezekia's time. Neither of these outlooks apply to God's children today. As scripture clearly states.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

If we believe Christ came and died for our sin than this passage is in full effect. Is not this the work of the Holy Ghost?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Why then do we still think we have need of offices of ministry? When what we need is the workings of the gifts of the spirit in our midst not the preaching from a pulpit.

Think about this, the word in Ephesians 4 (pastors) also means shepherd. Ever study how a shepherd handles sheep?
Let me give a few things he does not do and does do.

he does not get behind and drive the sheep into the pasture.
he does not hand feed the sheep.
he does not hand feed the sheep.
he leads them to pasture and lets them feed themsleves.

There is much more on the subject, the point is somewhere we have gotten away from Jesus being lord over our lives to Jesus is lord over the "five fold ministry" and they are lord over us.

Gods arm is not shortened he has the power to lead each and every one of us the way he wants us to go without mans interferance.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Pastor Rick

Well I had to ask the question, LOL or I would not know what you did. Right. As for finding a nerve? Well I just have several soap boxes that I have developed in the last 6 years. LOL

Some times my questions don't come accross right and others take offence but ask I will because if one does not ask they will never learn. Whick is why I am so discusted with the way things have gotten with the teaching and preaching of the word of God. There is no room for discusion, the preacher/pastor preaches the saints listen and if you don't agree you can ask after service. What are we so insicure in what we preach we can't discuse together what is being taught before everyone? maybe other might have the same question but are afraid to ask. But no we don't feel like we have done our job if we don't deliver the whole point that we have studied out.

Sorry here I go getting on another soap box. LOL

So let me line up what and how I see the ministry,

Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

The first thing we see is the teaching of Jesus, he is our example, and as he served so do we serve each other. Not the verse 25, how do we get around this teaching? We shall not be like them. We disquise this lordship as perfecting the saints, quoting the mistraslation of the word in Ephesians. Or sitting as a lookout on the wall in Hezekia's time. Neither of these outlooks apply to God's children today. As scripture clearly states.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

If we believe Christ came and died for our sin than this passage is in full effect. Is not this the work of the Holy Ghost?

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Why then do we still think we have need of offices of ministry? When what we need is the workings of the gifts of the spirit in our midst not the preaching from a pulpit.

Think about this, the word in Ephesians 4 (pastors) also means shepherd. Ever study how a shepherd handles sheep?
Let me give a few things he does not do and does do.

he does not get behind and drive the sheep into the pasture.
he does not hand feed the sheep.
he does not hand feed the sheep.
he leads them to pasture and lets them feed themsleves.

There is much more on the subject, the point is somewhere we have gotten away from Jesus being lord over our lives to Jesus is lord over the "five fold ministry" and they are lord over us.

Gods arm is not shortened he has the power to lead each and every one of us the way he wants us to go without mans interferance.

Will you ignore the NT church still had apostles, bishops, and elders?

[pastorrick1959]

as onefaith has stated ther is bible for them being there .how can they hear without a preacher and how can he preach unless he be sent .

people have always erred on their own always ,, heck they always erred with help lol. but ministry has been set up to help guide folks and be examples to them.
seems you have been on the bad end of a few pastors decisions ,,i feel you are honest and want to to a work for god not just a problem child ,, so i am sorry for what you have been thru. hopefully the hurt doesnt drive you from a place that people can benefit from what you bring to the table!

[Aquila]

The calling to the minister of "pastor" has little to do with preaching behind a pulpit, sermonizing, having an office, having a salary, or anything like these things.

A "pastor" is a "sheperd". Have you ever mentored a believer, built a relationship, instructed one in the way more perfectly? Then you're gifted in the ministery of "pastor". "Pastors" focus on "right practice". Most churches have many "pastors" in operation... it's just traditional religion only acknowledges the professional up front.

Evangelists share the gospel and strengthen other churches and Christians, keeping them fresh. Where the "pastor's" relationship can be too close to truly "rebuke" the "evangelist" can deliver the message God desires the churches to receive. Many are "evangelists"... though the church only recongizes those who travel professionally in ministry.

An "apostle" breaks new ground and advances the church. A "missionary" of sorts. It can be establishing a traditional church in a nation far away, starting a traditional church in a city that's never herd the "truth", or even establishing Bible study groups and house churches in areas where the truth hasn't been preached. Many operate in the realm of "apostle"...but the only one's recognized by the traditional church are those who are sent officially.

A prophet is one who hears directly from the Spirit of the Lord. Often these eccentrics are the most misunderstood. They walk in a realm that the traditional church doesn't quite "get". These are often seen as cooks, quacks, and nuts. But they are truly sent by God. The "prophet" reveals the HEART AND MIND OF GOD to churches, home based groups, and individual Christians. Some even operate over the internet. Yes... it's true. But the church typically only recognizes traditional "pastors" who operate in this area.

A teacher is one highly educated in the Scripture. Their passion is doctrine and teaching. These labor in the Word day and night always prepared to teach a church, Sunday school class, Bible study group, house church, or even just friends the doctrinal truths of the Bible. Typically traditional churches only recognize teachers that function in formal settings or pastors with a teaching gift. But teachers are scattered throughout the body. Many can be found in every church... and even on the internet.

The five fold ministry is alive and well. Give God praise and glory.

P.S.
While you may not do the work "professionally" according to traditional religion... what is YOUR ministry?

[pastorrick1959]

pretty good there aquilla .. i would diverse on a little of it but still pretty good..

definitly a pastor must be able to council folks in the proper direction ,, man i do it all the time seems like .. before church ..can i talk with you a minute. after church i need to speak with you a little while ...etc etc etc .. but i love helping folks so its all good .

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Will you ignore the NT church still had apostles, bishops, and elders?

Who's ingnoring the rest of the gifts from God? Im not but everyone else seems to be when the only gift recognized seems to be the pastor. And that not in the way set up by our Lord. As for elders and bishops read your word they were chosen by the people not "the so called, called" of God. They were the ones that took care of the administration of the body.

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

as onefaith has stated ther is bible for them being there .how can they hear without a preacher and how can he preach unless he be sent .

Yes there is but not in the authoritive capacity we think must be there. And how can they hear without a preacher? We are all commanded to preach the gospel it is not a calling. Just as we have all been sent, what you think the commision was just to the 12 diciples?

people have always erred on their own always ,, heck they always erred with help lol. but ministry has been set up to help guide folks and be examples to them.

That is the most arrogant statement, but I don't fault you for saying it, as it was told to you and me over the years and we have come to believe it. But it is not true in Christ, or else the holy ghost is not what we have preached it to be. As for erring the error is in the perspective of the viewer, the one judging the saint (what you see as sin)

Tell me where do you get scripture that says the ministry "has been set up" to guide and be examples "with authority" to dictate what they think are standards or doctrines of God? What most seem to overlook in Ephesians 4 is that we are all ministers, Eph 4:12 For the equiping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


seems you have been on the bad end of a few pastors decisions ,,i feel you are honest and want to to a work for god not just a problem child ,, so i am sorry for what you have been thru. hopefully the hurt doesnt drive you from a place that people can benefit from what you bring to the table!

I guess you have forgotten or missed earlier post of mine, I am a ordained minister, And have pastored, assited pastors and started churches, raised 4 children to adulthood to see them stay in the way and marry and raise families in Christ.

Personaly I have not been on the bad end of a few pastors but I have been close enough to see authority misused hundreds of times over the years. Even from some of the best pastors.

Originally Posted by Aquila

The calling to the minister of "pastor" has little to do with preaching behind a pulpit, sermonizing, having an office, having a salary, or anything like these things.

The five fold ministry is alive and well. Give God praise and glory.

P.S.
While you may not do the work "professionally" according to traditional religion... what is YOUR ministry?

Aquila sorry that I did not post all of your post. but it could not have been worded any better if I said it myself. Thanks. I don't know think any one is getting what I am trying to say?

In my humble opinion we have been drilled into our heads that when left without leadership the people will sin. So we set ourselves up to dictate to saints of God what we think should be the laws of God. But in doing this we place the keeping of the law back into the church. And we have passage after passage that tell us we are not to go back to keeping of the law. Which is a list of thou shalt nots, how many times must Paul or one of the other writters of the NT tells that the fulfiment of the Law is Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Yet we have made our list of thou shalt nots, And have called them the commandment of Christ. So I leave you with two scriptures again,

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Evidently you don't see this as having been fulfilled. But either the holy ghost has been given and this is fulfilled or we are living alie. Jesus own words said the holy ghost would teach and bring to your rememberance whatsoever.... What the holy ghost only teaches those called of God? My bible tells me the gift of the holy ghost is to every one.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by pastorrick1959

pretty good there aquilla .. i would diverse on a little of it but still pretty good..

definitly a pastor must be able to council folks in the proper direction ,, man i do it all the time seems like .. before church ..can i talk with you a minute. after church i need to speak with you a little while ...etc etc etc .. but i love helping folks so its all good .

How many other people may have the same pastoral ministry in your church to help people, but because of the way our churches are set up those gifts cannot be used as then authority of the pastor would be infringe upon. Sorry elder Rick I understand what you are saying but God intends for us all to be used in spiritual capacities not just the one that thinks God called him.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

How many other people may have the same pastoral ministry in your church to help people, but because of the way our churches are set up those gifts cannot be used as then authority of the pastor would be infringe upon. Sorry elder Rick I understand what you are saying but God intends for us all to be used in spiritual capacities not just the one that thinks God called him.

Well I would suggest you would talk to God about that. I have had many God Called Pastors. Leadership principles teach us leaders have to be followers first, but all followers and even many followers, cannot be leaders. I have been under men who I KNOW God called them to be my family's shepherd.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Who's ingnoring the rest of the gifts from God? Im not but everyone else seems to be when the only gift recognized seems to be the pastor. And that not in the way set up by our Lord. As for elders and bishops read your word they were chosen by the people not "the so called, called" of God. They were the ones that took care of the administration of the body.


.

I just posted to the premise that you come across as leadership are just the gifts and are only used when needed (reread your post). Apostles and prophets stayed in their office for life. Teachers, elders, and deacons were ordained by those in leadership (read Paul's instruction to Timothy).

To say leadership is simply a gift of the spirit and not a calling is to undermine the history of the church as a whole. I am sure that is not what you are meaning but it sounded like that.
I surely recognize more than a pastor. If you read the word, the people desired the office but the leaders chose them based on their lifestyle. There were qualifications for a biship and deacon.