Command or commandments?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've become rather close to a few Muslim friends here at work. Over the past three or four weeks we've been discussing Islam and Christianity. One thing that stood out to me is how they see Christians. They see us arguing and fighting over everything, and they see this as a testimony that we are in error and confusion. Ali, a good friend, explained that he is disturbed that Christians put such an ephasis on creed or doctrine and not enough emphasis on prayer and inward holiness. He believes that not even God cares what we know, because we can never know it all, but rather God cares about how we live because that directly effects the entire world around us.

I began to really think about that. Many in our fellowship are so hung up on "the truth", man made standards, and getting the formula right... but we're neglecting that solid, quiet, resolve of inner holiness.

I just thought I'd throw this in.

Great thought Aquila,

Thanks I once started to read the Koran and one of the first thing that was said in the first few pages it seems, was that they could not understand how Christians got the idea that there were three Gods.

And yes too many are so hung up on getting the formula right that they forget it is all about relationship with God. If we are so worried about being saved and staying saved where do we have time to have a personal relationship with God?

My Brother called me the other day, to tell me how he was thinking. He said God created man for relationship with him. He came down to pay the ultimite price for this relationship. So is only the few on the strait and narrow the ones to be saved? If this is true than has not God lost to Satan and Satan comes away with more in hell than God does in heaven. And all this because we "Full truth" teachers send everyone to hell that does not get salvation our way. But we forget the Christianity of all these others that we say are going to hell just because they have not followed our patern of works salvation.

Just some thoughts.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Rev.Richmond

So we can disobey all the, um "suggestions" that all the apostles "suggested" and still be saved?

RR,
Let's talk about the specifics of your question. I'm willing to go one at a time if you wish, not to prove you wrong, but to look at them by subject matter and discuss them.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Great thought Aquila,

Thanks I once started to read the Koran and one of the first thing that was said in the first few pages it seems, was that they could not understand how Christians got the idea that there were three Gods.

And yes too many are so hung up on getting the formula right that they forget it is all about relationship with God. If we are so worried about being saved and staying saved where do we have time to have a personal relationship with God?

My Brother called me the other day, to tell me how he was thinking. He said God created man for relationship with him. He came down to pay the ultimite price for this relationship. So is only the few on the strait and narrow the ones to be saved? If this is true than has not God lost to Satan and Satan comes away with more in hell than God does in heaven. And all this because we "Full truth" teachers send everyone to hell that does not get salvation our way. But we forget the Christianity of all these others that we say are going to hell just because they have not followed our patern of works salvation.

Just some thoughts.

What do you think the verse means regarding the straight and narrow?

I reject the notion that everyone that doesn't do it my way is going to hell. I haven't believed that for a few years.

I also reject that obedience to acts 2:38 is a works salvation. Its just not historically accurate, biblically accurate, or common sensely accurate.

If you repent and be baptized, you will receive

It just doesn't get much simpler in my opinion.
However the full truth preachers can send as many people to hell as they want, when in reality they are truly trying to see everyone saved. Thats the problem, God saves not man. We have to leave some of the saving to Him and thats what this full truth preacher is going to do.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

What do you think the verse means regarding the straight and narrow?

I reject the notion that everyone that doesn't do it my way is going to hell. I haven't believed that for a few years.

I also reject that obedience to acts 2:38 is a works salvation. Its just not historically accurate, biblically accurate, or common sensely accurate.

If you repent and be baptized, you will receive

It just doesn't get much simpler in my opinion.
However the full truth preachers can send as many people to hell as they want, when in reality they are truly trying to see everyone saved. Thats the problem, God saves not man. We have to leave some of the saving to Him and thats what this full truth preacher is going to do.

If Acts 2:38 is not a works salvation then please tell me at what point is ones salvation realized? At repentance?..... at baptism?.....When one has done all of these? A continued walk of perfecting holiness? Is this not works? Working to stay saved? Working to get saved? My bible and yours tells me the same thing we are saved by faith in Christ. It is God's grace that saves us. Why else does Paul need to say "What shall continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid." Because when we are saved God's grace covers us that in the eyes of God we are perfect, we are to go on to perfection but our salvation is in full affect as long as we are striving to live right.

It goes to a frame of mind, When we follow a works based religion like the pharisee, we have the attitude to judge others that are not up to our standards. And we have many passages to instruct we are not to judge.

If your look at some one and think to yourself they can't be a Christian and saved, based on your understanding of a "standard" then you are a "works based salvation". And you have excluded those that have not come up to your standards as lost, that is judging.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

If Acts 2:38 is not a works salvation then please tell me at what point is ones salvation realized? At repentance?..... at baptism?.....When one has done all of these? A continued walk of perfecting holiness? Is this not works? Working to stay saved? Working to get saved? My bible and yours tells me the same thing we are saved by faith in Christ. It is God's grace that saves us. Why else does Paul need to say "What shall continue in sin that grace may abound, God forbid." Because when we are saved God's grace covers us that in the eyes of God we are perfect, we are to go on to perfection but our salvation is in full affect as long as we are striving to live right.

It goes to a frame of mind, When we follow a works based religion like the pharisee, we have the attitude to judge others that are not up to our standards. And we have many passages to instruct we are not to judge.

If your look at some one and think to yourself they can't be a Christian and saved, based on your understanding of a "standard" then you are a "works based salvation". And you have excluded those that have not come up to your standards as lost, that is judging.

Where is standards in Acts 2:38

By the way only calvinists believe you DO NOTHING to be saved. Repentance is something you do.

Brother you are confused with the difference between an action and a work. Paul spoke of works of the law, not baptism and belief. Those are things we do, but they are not works. They are how we respond to grace. Grace saves us through faith. Faith is the response. How do you have faith. When you have faith, it is something you do, you believe and repent. You are too hung up on bitterness of standards.

By the way I don't believe acts 2:38 is all that salvation is. Matter of fact I don't think a person is completely saved from hell till they enter heaven. How do we make it to heaven? It isn't because of standards or practices. Its because of faith. Faith causes us to do the standards and pratices.

you said

full affect as long as we are striving to live right.

That is something that we do. Striving is an action.

[Godsdrummer]

onefaith2Where is standards in Acts 2:38

Who said anything about standards in Acts 2:38? they are actions, actions are something you do last time I heard that is a work.

By the way only calvinists believe you DO NOTHING to be saved. Repentance is something you do.

Not true, several Christians beleive we are saved by faith. And from my understanding when one was saved under calvinist understanding they required high standards of living.

All I am saying is that what ever convictions, or standards a denomination has are not savational.

Brother you are confused with the difference between an action and a work. Paul spoke of works of the law, not baptism and belief. Those are things we do, but they are not works. They are how we respond to grace. Grace saves us through faith. Faith is the response. How do you have faith. When you have faith, it is something you do, you believe and repent. You are too hung up on bitterness of standards.

I don't think I am the one that has the hang up or misunderstanding, of what a work is. It was Jesus that said "as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wildreness, so must the son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believith on him...." how much more simpler can you get.

As for hung up on standards, what I am hung up on is the authority some men take over Gods creation and place thier own convictions on God's children. placing themselves between them and the personal relationship each and every one of us are to have with God.

By the way I don't believe acts 2:38 is all that salvation is. Matter of fact I don't think a person is completely saved from hell till they enter heaven. How do we make it to heaven? It isn't because of standards or practices. Its because of faith. Faith causes us to do the standards and pratices.

you said

full affect as long as we are striving to live right.

That is something that we do. Striving is an action

Again you twist the meaning of my words, to back up your ideas, I am just saying what James tells us that if we are saved our actions will follow. Call these works the fact is they come after salvation. The proof of our faith is realized by the change that will be manifested in the actions that become part of our life after salvation.

Let me put it in a different light, Jesus said I am the door, I am the way, to what? Salvation? Paul said God was in Christ reconciling the world to him self, to salvation? It is my understanding it is all about restoration of the relationship lost in the garden, we get so wrapped up in being saved and heaven we loose the chance we have to have the relationship that God created this world and put us into it for. We so wrapped up in getting out of this life we are missing a golden opportunity to know God in a way that we cannot know him in the life to come.

But that is just my opinion, I am not saying I am right or you are wrong all I am wanting to do is get others to get to their own personal relationship with God.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Not true, several Christians beleive we are saved by faith. And from my understanding when one was saved under calvinist understanding they required high standards of living.

Everyone believes we are saved by faith but many Christians believe we are saved by faith when we repent of our sins, not before. Your thoughts?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Everyone believes we are saved by faith but many Christians believe we are saved by faith when we repent of our sins, not before. Your thoughts?

Sorry for not responding more quickly, I have been praying how best to respond. As I don't feel anyone on the forum is not saved. And my goal is not to argue or to say anything that would shake any ones faith in what they have with God. What I do want to do is to get people to question when they are strong enough to stand on their own beliefs and not mans traditions, this takes time and individual growth. As Isaiah said line upon line here a little there a little. It has been my experiance that when one begans to go to God and questions the so called man of God that a person grows in relation with God. And that is what I hope to cause to happen. So thought I may throw out so outlandish statements at times and even sound argumentive. I don't think I am the only one that is right.

With that being said, John chapter 3 being the base of where many start when preaching salvation of repentanc, baptism and infilment with the spirit of the HG, (three step salvation) as I think is the term used on this forum. This based on the statement of being born of water and spirit, in John 3:5. The fact of the matter this interpretation of Jesus words do not follow the rest of the conversation. As at the end of this converstation with Nicodemus Jesus makes these statements.


Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

How does one line up saying being born of water is baptism as this puts words into Jesus mouth that he did not say, as this passaged refutes that idea.

When Israel were bitten by the serpent all they had to do to be saved was to look upon the serpent in faith.

With that thought, I beleive we are completely saved when we hear the good news and beleive in the cross by faith. It is then that our faith causes us to repent, then to contintue in the commandments as God leads us by his spirit.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

...
How does one line up saying being born of water is baptism as this puts words into Jesus mouth that he did not say, as this passaged refutes that idea.
...

because

a text taken from its context is just a con

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sam

because

a text taken from its context is just a con

Agreed Sam, Agreed.

When we take the bible for what it is a guide book for finding relationship with God, and examples of what can happen when we turn from God. And build the Kingdom of God and not our kingdoms maybe, with all that, God can join us into being one body of believers.