How many times did you ask God for the Holy Ghost?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Of course I didn't beg, I just "thanked him in advance" for 10 hours! lol

Post of the day.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The Samaritans were seeking for the Holy Ghost. They weren't filled until Peter and John came to pray with them.

You know I love you, Miz, and respect you and admire you and I KNOW you have a heart after God. But this is what baffles me about your position. You are stretched this example beyond all recognition. This story isn't anywhere in the same hemisphere as the grinding at the altar that pentecostals put people through under the guise of being saved through the "Filling of the Holy Ghost."

I don't mean this to be offensive, but can you hear yourself here?

[noeticknight]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Sam, who are we going to believe? The testimonies in the Bible or someone who said she was baptized in the Spirit but did not speak in tongues for a couple of days?

How did she know she was baptized in the Spirit before she spoke with tongues?

Good question mizpeh, at what point do we know we have received God's gift? Let me ask you this. How and when did the centurion know that his servant was healed?

As Jesus went into Capernaum, a centurion came up to Him, begging Him, And saying, Lord, my servant boy is lying at the house paralyzed and distressed with intense pains. And Jesus said to him, I will come and restore him.

But the centurion replied to Him, Lord, I am not worthy or fit to have You come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant boy will be cured.
For I also am a man subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my slave, Do this, and he does it.
When Jesus heard him, He marveled and said to those who followed Him who adhered steadfastly to Him, conforming to His example in living and, if need be, in dying also, I tell you truly, I have not found so much faith as this with anyone, even in Israel.

I tell you, many will come from east and west, and will sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, While the sons and heirs of the kingdom will be driven out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. Then to the centurion Jesus said, Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed. And the servant boy was restored to health at that very moment.

(Matthew 8:5-13)


Now, regarding the above, do you believe Jesus would have bestowed one of the greatest praises in all of His ministry on this man if he had asked for a sign of confirmation, a receipt of service if you will? --"Let me now tarry until thou send a sign of the miracle."

Imo, and in theme with this thread, I think the story of the centurion really puts things in perspective when we talk of asking and receiving divine gifts from God. You have people that come to God with only their faith, as is what our Lord requires, but it seems there are always those around trying to take measurements of that faith, as if God needs assistance or has hung up His mantle of sovereignty.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by notofworks

You know I love you, Miz, and respect you and admire you and I KNOW you have a heart after God. But this is what baffles me about your position. You are stretched this example beyond all recognition. This story isn't anywhere in the same hemisphere as the grinding at the altar that pentecostals put people through under the guise of being saved through the "Filling of the Holy Ghost."

I don't mean this to be offensive, but can you hear yourself here?

I'm not offended.

I believe all of the early church taught the same thing. Philip preached the same gospel that the apostles did which was a similar message to what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. A message that included faith in Christ, repentance, baptism for the forgiveness of sins, the infilling of the Holy Spirit, resurrection, and judgement. The infilling of the Holy Spirit is part of the new birth. And the new birth is a MUST. I'm assuming that Philip preached the same things that Peter preached and therefore Philip would have taught on the baptism of the Spirit with the sign of speaking with other tongues. When the Spirit wasn't given they sent for the apostles who came to them, prayed for them with the laying on of hands, and then they received the Spirit.

We don't just go by the smallest common denominator that we find in all of the conversions and preaching messages found in the book of Acts, which would be faith in Christ, and say "this is what we must do to be saved", but we have to take everything into account.


5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city. 9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

[noeticknight]

Were the Apostles "tongue doctors," or were they just believing that God would pour out His Spirit if they ministered to the people? Yes, I believe it is complete and total assumption to assert that they were expecting them to speak in tongues as a universal sign.

What do the epistles teach us of salvation? Shouldn't this doctrine of applying the "highest uncommon denominator" to all people for all time have another witness in the didactic portions of the Word?

So you believe that it was the author's intent here to portray the Apostles as "spiritual scientists" conferring back and forth as to who was saved and who wasn't? Could it be a possibility that the author was parenthetically giving a narrative account from a perspective of recollection? Why assume that the Apostles "expected" a sign of tongues? And even if one reasons that they did expect some manifestation to occur, why assume the Samaritans unsaved?

[noeticknight]

We can certainly get microscopic with the scriptures, but before we get too deep into that, what about the age of the "Initial Evidence" doctrine? The original formulators had no such ideas about "speaking in tongues" being linked to salvation, so why adopt a reformulated theory less than a century old? And btw, where does this theory put the rest of Christendom?

This doctrine was handed down to me from my former church leader. The history was never explained, and its evolution into a requirement for salvation was always kept conveniently hidden. Instead, I grew up witnessing pressure-cook church services that must have been like hitting the jackpot on a slot machine in Vegas, "We've got one over here that won it!!!" "Not tonight, but don't worry, next week is your lucky week!!" In the end, it made me no more of a Christian than his other teachings such as "outward holiness standards" or paying a penalty of 5% on your gross if you missed paying the mandated 10%.

[noeticknight]

I've totally hijacked this thread now jfrog, you must be getting slack on the job...

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Sam, who are we going to believe? The testimonies in the Bible or someone who said she was baptized in the Spirit but did not speak in tongues for a couple of days?

How did she know she was baptized in the Spirit before she spoke with tongues?

The "testimonies of the Bible" are really "testimonies of people" aren't they?

How do you know God exists? What is your absolute, undeniable proof?

[notofworks]

Oh my goodness!!! I just read the poll results. Unreal. What an indictment of the process. If 70% of respondents had to "Try" more than 20 times, what does this say about the "tongues" concept as a whole?

Wow.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Oh my goodness!!! I just read the poll results. Unreal. What an indictment of the process. If 70% of respondents had to "Try" more than 20 times, what does this say about the "tongues" concept as a whole?

Wow.

2 people got it without ever asking (I gave no poll option for this). So its actually more like 11/18, which is only only about 61.1%