Apo.Emergent Changers Catering to "WORLDLINGS" ...

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

Why don't we get down to the truth. This is really just a railing of complaints Howard Davis is using to get back at his brother's grandson's church in Riverside, CA. When the Riverside church changed their worship services, many members moved to Larry Booker's Inland Lighthouse Church in Rialto, CA (WPF).

How illuminating. Thanks.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by crazyjoe

Why don't we get down to the truth. This is really just a railing of complaints Howard Davis is using to get back at his brother's grandson's church in Riverside, CA. When the Riverside church changed their worship services, many members moved to Larry Booker's Inland Lighthouse Church in Rialto, CA (WPF).

I don't believe that was the reason he voiced his valid concerns.


Our Pentecostal worship services should be geared towards bringing people to a place where they can experience their own personal, Biblically based Pentecost.

I am absolutely convinced that there are good Christian songs that would prohibit that from happening if brought into the worship setting.

There is more to this subject than preference.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I don't believe that was the reason he voiced his valid concerns.


Our Pentecostal worship services should be geared towards bringing people to a place where they can experience their own personal, Biblically based Pentecost.

I am absolutely convinced that there are good Christian songs that would prohibit that from happening if brought into the worship setting.

There is more to this subject than preference.

Perhaps from your experience and view point, JD. And, you are correct - within that perspective.

But the practice of publishing an article to decry the way some other pastor is conducting his services is common amongst us, unfortunately. Someone who is unfamiliar with the direct circumstances may take up a point or two and apply it to their own situation. However, when (and if) we can understand the author's own experiences then we can get at the root of his complaint and understand his motivation better.

You are correct - on the Atlantic coast. However, the writer's heart and concerns appear to have been rather narrowly focused on "the Valley" out near the Pacific coast.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Our Pentecostal worship services should be geared towards bringing people to a place where they can experience their own personal, Biblically based Pentecost.

POTD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I don't believe that was the reason he voiced his valid concerns.


Our Pentecostal worship services should be geared towards bringing people to a place where they can experience their own personal, Biblically based Pentecost.

I am absolutely convinced that there are good Christian songs that would prohibit that from happening if brought into the worship setting.

There is more to this subject than preference.

RE: The underlined portion above.

Since no one in recorded history has actually experienced the "Biblical Pentecost" (speaking in foreign languages that were understood by native speakers, cloven tongues of fire, etc) this statement is left open to a great deal of analysis.

Just how does the style of music (and I mean reasonably here, no AC/DC - just Christian worship music including "modern" or contemporary styles) affect what God is going to do since His plans were set in motion from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4)? Is He really moved by the relatively insignificant changes of musical style over the years?

The article under review here was clearly directed at some things that the author found disturbing within his own fellowship experience. He describes the object of his concern thusly:

"There are Changes being promoted among UPCI Churches, by young, and some not so young, Preachers. These CHANGERS want to totally change the form and order of Church Services, and are ACCOMPLISHING it in some Churches."

He then goes on to make the outrageous charge that:

"These CHANGERS seem to be totally unaware that they are catering to rebellious, hippy mind set, drug infested, immoral, street living Worldlings."

He then focuses upon the specific object of his concern (as identified by "Crazy Joe"):

"They, the “Changers” have for the most part, paid nothing nor sacrificed their life to bring a Church into being."

You hear this particular complaint a lot. I don't know the pastor facing this scorn personally, but I have worked in and seen many churches where "the respected elder" was well past his prime by the time hit hit 50, yet he stayed on. The church was then carried by the faithful labors of his children (both "in the Gospel" and even natural children) while the old man reaped the benefits of age and had the chance and free time to follow his own curiosities and pursuits.

Later, when the transition was made official and the "younger guy" was allowed more reign to shape things according to his vision - the old man's buddies all cried "Foul!" because "the kids" had never sacrificed to build the church.

Baloney.

What we see here is the error and sin of Nebuchadnezzar and "The Mark of the Beast." This article cries out from the pits of Babylon. The writer has proclaimed himself to be everything from the head of gold to the Ten Toed Kingdoms of this world. We must NOT bow down to this graven image - I don't care what kind of music they play! We must NOT bow down!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

POTD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That "POST" was made by DAII on 5/26/2010.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=30108

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by pelathais

What we see here is the error and sin of Nebuchadnezzar and "The Mark of the Beast." This article cries out from the pits of Babylon. The writer has proclaimed himself to be everything from the head of gold to the Ten Toed Kingdoms of this world. We must NOT bow down to this graven image - I don't care what kind of music they play! We must NOT bow down!

You sure are ascribing a lot of negativity to this man of God.

I think you are over reacting here, and maybe even insulting to the writer's intentions.

Honestly, what I gathered from the article was that he is urging that Pentecostal churches remain Pentecostal in worship and experience.

I would even take it one step further-- people should be able to tell you are a Christian in the way you dress. I'm not talking standards, but the Bible speaks very clearly about modesty.


The manifestation of the Holy Ghost in our services SO PRECIOUS! It is the Grace of God that allows us to experience Him in this way.

Why would we want to allow anything into our churches that has the potential to take something so precious away from our services?



Music plays a role, and I am talking more than just preferences.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

but the Bible speaks very clearly about modesty.

Can you define modesty, biblically? The word is only in the Bible once. I do believe in dressing modestly, but I think it falls under the heading of 'love your neighbor'. The Bible really doesn't address how much skin should/should not show. So I really don't think we can say "the Bible speaks very clearly about modesty", not in the context with which we usually use the word.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Can you define modesty, biblically? The word is only in the Bible once. I do believe in dressing modestly, but I think it falls under the heading of 'love your neighbor'. The Bible really doesn't address how much skin should/should not show. So I really don't think we can say "the Bible speaks very clearly about modesty", not in the context with which we usually use the word.

The Bible does speak clearly about modesty.

The command for modesty is clear.

We must avoid legalism as legalism dulls the fire of the Holy Spirit in the lives of people.

With that said, we should be careful as we dress, to not purposely incite lust in others-- males and females. Individual liberties should not be stiffled by the weaknesses of others, but neither should our liberties be overtly offensive.

Even Paul valued his liberty in Christ.

This can be done, and should be done, with the leading of the Holy Spirit. If a person must be taught, it's should be in a way that doesn't stiffle individuality.

We were not created in the image of a robot. We were created in the image of GOD and He is very creative.

[Apocrypha]

Acts Chapter 15

7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

----------------------------------------------------------------------- And later this was the conclusion of the Counsel of Jerusalem...

28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:

29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't seem the counsel of Jerusalem had much to say about dress code.