For those that left the UPC...

[Godsdrummer]

[QUOTE=Mirth1981;913497]

Originally Posted by GraceAmazing

I think we should be on the same page too. I am going to try to be patient. In the meantime, I think I am going to fight feeling like a hypocrite, because I am in leadership at my church.

Did you and your husband sit down and explain to your pastor why you were leaving? How did you tell him?

I don't think there will ever be a complete healing...there are many things that I can't share on here about being treated badly and at times "spiritually abused" by ministry. I suppose that happens in other churches too...but why does it seem so prevalent in certain ones? I don't understand.

I can empathise with you about the spiritual abuse, my wife had two or three ministers wives treat her differantly just because I let my license go back with UPC. She still has a hard time at times over this. As for being a hyporcirte, forget that, you are in submition to your husband no hypocrisy there. We will pray that God will give you wisdom to handle things as he leads.

[Mirth1981]

Today I was reading the book entitled "Why? A Study of Christian Standards" written by Kelsey Griffin, Dan Segraves, Ralph Reynolds, and Rick Wyser. It was published by Word Aflame, and endorsed by Nathaniel A Urshan. The book was put out in 1984.

In the section about women's hair, it addresses 1 Cor Ch 11 (of course), and the fact that Paul was writing concerning the Corinthian women wearing their veils in the church, which was the custom of that time. This, in fact, is what 1 Cor 11 is about...not whether or not women should or should not cut their hair. I know I'm preaching to the choir here...sorry.

Anyway...the part I found extremely interesting is this (apologize this is a bit lengthy, but please take the time to read it):

"Should Christian women today wear veils? Although women who wear veils today should not be condemned for the practice, neither the Scriptures nor present customs mandate the wearing of veils. There are several reasons why it is not necessary for Christian women of our society to wear a veil.
No veil was required in the beginning. One basic principle in biblical interpretation is that the first time a thing is mentioned in Scripture it will contain the basic truth which will be reflected in all subsequent passages. "

(going to skip a few sentences here...)

"Veiling was but a temporary custom. It has not been followed from ancient history, nor has it been widely practiced during the past many centuries. If a certain thing is a mark of immorality in a specific culture, a Christian woman should not do it. But that does not mean that other Christian women, at other places and times, must refrain from the practice if it has no imroper connotations in their respective societies. Culture bears much significance in the traditions and standards of a particular region."

Wow...does anybody else see what I see, especially pertaining to that last paragraph? That is straight from the horse's mouth.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

Hi...I don't intend for this thread to be started as a debate. I would just like to hear stories from those that have left the UPC.

Specifically...What made you finally decide to leave? Was it difficult? Were you able to find a church that wasn't "easy believism" but yet one that didn't enforce extra-biblical principles where you could go and worship God in your own way? Do you have any regrets? Anything you wish you had done differently? How is your walk with God now? Do you still suffer from self condemnation and feel brainwashed?

I have been really struggling in my spirit lately. I'm terrified of leaving the UPC because of the repercussions it will cause in my life (and for my husband, who is a minister). Yet I know feeling this way just reinforces the fact that I need to "get out." I still believe in oneness, baptism, and the Holy Ghost. What I don't believe in is man made "standards" that create an environment that breeds judgmentalism and pharisetical saints. Also every church I've been in...I feel controlled....even manipulated. I can't do that anymore. But I don't know how to get out.

I hope this is okay...and that I'm not breaking any rules by posting this. I have been reading this forum lately, and it seems like there are many very balanced people on here. This seemed like a good place to go for support.

Thank you in advance.

I got in church when I was 13. I started going with a friend from high school. The church began as an independent apostolic church and then a few years after I began going they became affiliated with the UPCI. My church didn't change one bit in this transition.

No one else from my family went, other than my mom who visited a couple of times. I got really on fire for God quickly. I went to a public school and I would even read my bible and pray there every chance I got. (Of course it was quietly and to myself.) By the time I was 15 or so I had began questioning the standards. This was mostly due to hearing others on the internet ask me questions about them that I could not answer.

I wouldn't have left the church over the standards alone, but as time went on (I was 16 or 17 now) I began questioning every other major doctrine that was being taught. The breaking point for me was when I stopped believing tongues were essential to salvation. (Yes I had spoken in tongues). I went for months longer, but finally I could not comfortably sit through even half a service any longer so I left and didn't go back. I don't really have words to describe the discomfort I was feeling during those services but that was why I left.

I had good intentions of keeping close to God. This didn't last long though. I had a sin I had struggled with my whole time during church and finally I gave up the struggle. I decided I would rather do my own thing than keep falling into that sin and being a hypocrite. So I stopped living for God or I guess I should say attempting to. I still remember how amazed my classmates were to hear me cuss. They would ask me to do it again and again.

I'm not a christian today. I still have too many questions. I still commit the same sin.

I wouldn't wish anyone to begin questioning the standards. I know where it can lead. I know the difficulty of the journey. Though I also wish that no one ever taught the standards to begin with. But since you have already began the questioning, the only advice I know for you is that you had better prepare because the journey you are about to go on will be one of the hardest things you will ever face and this will be true whether you are led to leave or stay.

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I got in church when I was 13. I started going with a friend from high school. The church began as an independent apostolic church and then a few years after I began going they became affiliated with the UPCI. My church didn't change one bit in this transition.

No one else from my family went, other than my mom who visited a couple of times. I got really on fire for God quickly. I went to a public school and I would even read my bible and pray there every chance I got. (Of course it was quietly and to myself.) By the time I was 15 or so I had began questioning the standards. This was mostly due to hearing others on the internet ask me questions about them that I could not answer.

I wouldn't have left the church over the standards alone, but as time went on (I was 16 or 17 now) I began questioning every other major doctrine that was being taught. The breaking point for me was when I stopped believing tongues were essential to salvation. (Yes I had spoken in tongues). I went for months longer, but finally I could not comfortably sit through even half a service any longer so I left and didn't go back. I don't really have words to describe the discomfort I was feeling during those services but that was why I left.

I had good intentions of keeping close to God. This didn't last long though. I had a sin I had struggled with my whole time during church and finally I gave up the struggle. I decided I would rather do my own thing than keep falling into that sin and being a hypocrite. So I stopped living for God or I guess I should say attempting to. I still remember how amazed my classmates were to hear me cuss. They would ask me to do it again and again.

I'm not a christian today. I still have too many questions. I still commit the same sin.

I wouldn't wish anyone to begin questioning the standards. I know where it can lead. I know the difficulty of the journey. Though I also wish that no one ever taught the standards to begin with. But since you have already began the questioning the only advice I know for you is that you had better prepare because the journey you are about to go on will be one of the hardest things you will ever face and this will be true whether you are led to leave or stay.

Your story reminds me of the argument many preachers use to support holiness standards: because they create a hedge of protection around a Christian, and keep them from sliding "down the slippery slope" and away from the Lord. Do you have any regrets or things you wish you had done differently?

It makes me sad that you are no longer a Christian. I hope you don't take that the wrong way...I don't mean to be offensive or sound ignorant.
I understand where you are coming from, though...I have so many questions right now. I feel hurt and betrayed. I don't want to be bitter.

In spite of everything, God loves us all.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

Your story reminds me of the argument many preachers use to support holiness standards: because they create a hedge of protection around a Christian, and keep them from sliding "down the slippery slope" and away from the Lord. Do you have any regrets or things you wish you had done differently?

It makes me sad that you are no longer a Christian. I hope you don't take that the wrong way...I don't mean to be offensive or sound ignorant.
I understand where you are coming from, though...I have so many questions right now. I feel hurt and betrayed. I don't want to be bitter.

In spite of everything, God loves us all.

I had short hair and was clean shaven anyways so the only real holiness standards I had to worry about was wearing pants. I wore them everywhere too. Even swimming. I even wore them and a tshirt at the beach on a family vacation while swimming. They didn't keep me from sinning.

But I can understand how the holiness standards for some people may keep them from going down a slippery slope. It's not for the reason the preachers usually give though. If you notice the standards from one apostolic church to another often differ and sometimes differ drastically. The power of keeping some people from a slippery slope is not in what standards are present. The power in keeping some people from a slippery slope is in having standards at all. For the people that believe in or even abide by those standards it gives them an identity, a special one of a kind identity. The standards and that identity are then tied to serving God which gives the person that keeps the standards confidence that they can serve God. Sometimes all that is needed for someone to start doing something like serving God is confidence that they can. Such people may well fall into a slippery slope if their foundation in serving God is ever removed, which regretably for some people might be the standards.

I do have a few regrets and things I wish had been different. First of all I wish I would have had a better relationship with my pastor. I did go to him for advice one time and he gave excellent advice. I didn't listen to him though. (My mom and I fought about me only wearing pants. He told me to not fight with her about it but I did anyways and she eventually said it was okay for me to not wear shorts.)

Secondly I wish that I would have been able to go to someone in the church about all my questions before I left. Maybe even the pastor but there was really no relationship between me and him or anyone else that I felt comfortable speaking those questions.

Third I regret not having found a better way to leave the church than just leaving after I absolutely couldn't bear to stay any longer.

As far as me taking offense to you being sad that I'm not a christian. I don't. You can even pray for me if you wish.

I imagine that from now on there will always be unanswered questions. If you want to serve God you must learn to serve God despite them.

You will feel hurt and betrayed for a while but always remember that there was a time when you sincerely believed the standards also. This should help some.

EDIT: I have another regret too. My classmates asked me if I sinned after I got in church. I lied and told them no. I regret that most of all.

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by jfrog

But I can understand how the holiness standards for some people may keep them from going down a slippery slope. It's not for the reason the preachers usually give though. If you notice the standards from one apostolic church to another often differ and sometimes differ drastically. The power of keeping some people from a slippery slope is not in what standards are present. The power in keeping some people from a slippery slope is in having standards at all. For the people that believe in or even abide by those standards it gives them an identity, a special one of a kind identity. The standards are then tied to serving God which gives the person that keeps the standards confidence that they can serve God. Sometimes all that is needed for someone to start doing something like serving God is confidence that they can. Such people may well fall into a slippery slope if their foundation in serving God is ever removed, which regretably for some people might be the standards.

Yes! This is true...I'm beginning to realize that many Christians' foundations and walks with God are based on their standards. ie. the Christian thinks (even if just on a subconscious level): "If I do thus and thus, I will have the favor of God in my life, and He will love me and forgive me."

How sad that anyone would feel this way about God. I know that no matter what I do my earthly father will always love me because I am his daughter, so how much more will my Heavenly father love me?

Originally Posted by jfrog

Secondly I wish that I would have been able to go to someone in the church about all my questions before I left. Maybe even the pastor but there was really no relationship between me and him or anyone else that I felt comfortable speaking those questions.

Do you think they would have been able to explain things in a way that you could understand, so that you might have never left?

Originally Posted by jfrog

As far as me taking offense to you being sad that I'm not a christian. I don't. You can even pray for me if you wish.

I do wish to pray for you. I pray that you find confidence and peace in our merciful God, and that you feel His love for you every day.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

Yes! This is true...I'm beginning to realize that many Christians' foundations and walks with God are based on their standards. ie. the Christian thinks (even if just on a subconscious level): "If I do thus and thus, I will have the favor of God in my life, and He will love me and forgive me."

How sad that anyone would feel this way about God. I know that no matter what I do my earthly father will always love me because I am his daughter, so how much more will my Heavenly father love me?





Do you think they would have been able to explain things in a way that you could understand, so that you might have never left?




I do wish to pray for you. I pray that you find confidence and peace in our merciful God, and that you feel His love for you every day.

They wouldn't have been able to explain most if any of the standards from scripture. I don't know what difference it would have made if I had discussed the standards or the essentiality of speaking in tongues with anyone. It's just something I would have liked to have had the oppurtunity to do.

Thanks for the prayer I already prayed for you also

[Mirth1981]

Originally Posted by jfrog

They wouldn't have been able to explain most if any of the standards from scripture. I don't know what difference it would have made if I had discussed the standards or the essentiality of speaking in tongues with anyone. It's just something I would have liked to have had the oppurtunity to do.

Thanks for the prayer I already prayed for you also

I think I understand how you feel. Maybe you would have felt more closure also.

Thank you for your prayers...Lord knows I need them!

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Mirth1981

Today I was reading the book entitled "Why? A Study of Christian Standards" written by Kelsey Griffin, Dan Segraves, Ralph Reynolds, and Rick Wyser. It was published by Word Aflame, and endorsed by Nathaniel A Urshan. The book was put out in 1984.

In the section about women's hair, it addresses 1 Cor Ch 11 (of course), and the fact that Paul was writing concerning the Corinthian women wearing their veils in the church, which was the custom of that time. This, in fact, is what 1 Cor 11 is about...not whether or not women should or should not cut their hair. I know I'm preaching to the choir here...sorry.

Anyway...the part I found extremely interesting is this (apologize this is a bit lengthy, but please take the time to read it):

"Should Christian women today wear veils? Although women who wear veils today should not be condemned for the practice, neither the Scriptures nor present customs mandate the wearing of veils. There are several reasons why it is not necessary for Christian women of our society to wear a veil.
No veil was required in the beginning. One basic principle in biblical interpretation is that the first time a thing is mentioned in Scripture it will contain the basic truth which will be reflected in all subsequent passages. "

(going to skip a few sentences here...)

"Veiling was but a temporary custom. It has not been followed from ancient history, nor has it been widely practiced during the past many centuries. If a certain thing is a mark of immorality in a specific culture, a Christian woman should not do it. But that does not mean that other Christian women, at other places and times, must refrain from the practice if it has no imroper connotations in their respective societies. Culture bears much significance in the traditions and standards of a particular region."

Wow...does anybody else see what I see, especially pertaining to that last paragraph? That is straight from the horse's mouth.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I see it, But I saw it several years ago when I realize Paul was not talking about hair but veiling.
Jfrog reminded me of one very important point about church and Christianity, that is relationship with God. If one does not have true relationship with God when trials and questions come a person will generaly walk away from God. But if one has a true relationship with God one will move up in that relationship.

This is why it gets me when preacher preach standards. The word says to not add to or take away from any of the words of the law. Yet that is what many have done added to. Then when questions arise over these things it causes many to lose thier faith in God.

Looking back over my life time from a differant perspective than when I was legalistic. I now see many that left over standards. Some went on to other churches those that had a true walk with God. Other went back to the vomit they were saved from. I have seen God lead others out, to see them grow and start works for him. These same ones we said were lost when they left. I am just throwing some thoughts out there hope to encouraged you to stay close to God no matter what direction things take you.

One last thought today, if your husband truly loves God and his word and studies and prays and listens to Gods voice. In time he will see what you see because truth will prevail.

I thought I was alone with the things I found 20 years ago. I stayed with UPC for 10+ years after seeing the unbiblical standards. This forum has opened up the understanding at least that I am not alone. But there are so many other things that we have missed the boat on too. So don't stop learning. My views on several things have changed in the last two to three years my wife has a hard time keeping up with me. Do we agree on everything? no But we have come to agree on the important things.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

One last thought today, if your husband truly loves God and his word and studies and prays and listens to Gods voice. In time he will see what you see because truth will prevail.

And if he sees you still praying, studying your Bible, demonstrating the love of God... it will give him pause. He'll come to respect your viewpoint when he sees that you are still close to God. That changing your views on standards didn't drive you away from a close relationship with God.