Apostolic Minister/State Rep. voted for AZ bill

[DAII]

Originally Posted by n david

How can you Pastor while knowingly breaking the law? I'm sure there's something in the Bible against that. Legally it's the same as killing someone, then getting up in the pulpit to preach ... they're breaking a law.

Really?

Then hell and brimstone on the Chinese pastor who illegally smuggles in bibles, the Iranian pastor holding church services, the German pastor harboring Jews in Nazi Germany, the Quaker pastor hiding fugitive slaves as part of the Underground Railroad. All these in nations who consider themselves legitimate and democratic. The law is the law and the bible says ...

Where was the moralist/spiritual rule of law arguments when lands were taken by force and coersion. Oh, I forgot we needed to fulfill our Manifest Destiny and Protestanize the lost.

Some believe our country is still capable of unjust laws and tyranny of the majority

It has in the past as all human govts have as well,

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

What on EARTH does this man's vote have to do with tithes and offering in the church??????

Let's review:

1. He pastors a church that no doubt contains illegal immigrants, at least according to comments on this thread.

2. He's involved in politics, and voted on a bill that allows law enforcement officers to check to immigration status of people who have committed crimes.

3. This somehow makes him hypocritical, and in order to be consistent, he needs to boot all the illegals out of his church and return any tithes or offering they've paid in?

I would say that consistency would only require him to boot out illegals who are involved in criminal activity other than their simple illegal status, and return any money THEY have given him. Otherwise, I can't even connect the dots.

If he believes that tithes and offerings are what the Bible teaches - then every person that is a member of the church is going to follow that teaching - whether illegal or not. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by DAII

Really?

Then hell and brimstone on the Chinese pastor who illegally smuggles in bibles, the Iranian pastor holding church services, the German pastor harboring Jews in Nazi Germany, the Quaker pastor hiding fugitive slaves as part of the Underground Railroad. All these in nations who consider themselves legitimate and democratic. The law is the law and the bible says ...

Where was the moralist/spiritual rule of law arguments when lands were taken by force and coersion. Oh, I forgot we needed to fulfill our Manifest Destiny and Protestanize the lost.

Some believe our country is still capable of unjust laws and tyranny of the majority

It has in the past as all human govts have as well,

Uh...yeah...obviously allowing an illegal immigrant to attend your church is NOT the same as murdering someone. For Pete's sake. Is no one sane anymore?

n_david--did you forget that Paul had to be smuggled in and out of cities in order to preach the Gospel and then save his own life? He was definitely breaking the law. I know of missionaries who had to be smuggled into countries to preach, OR enter under the pretense of being a tourist or teacher.

[DAII]

But by definition being illegal is criminal activity.

It becomes circular

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

What on EARTH does this man's vote have to do with tithes and offering in the church??????

Let's review:

1. He pastors a church that no doubt contains illegal immigrants, at least according to comments on this thread.

2. He's involved in politics, and voted on a bill that allows law enforcement officers to check to immigration status of people who have committed crimes.

3. This somehow makes him hypocritical, and in order to be consistent, he needs to boot all the illegals out of his church and return any tithes or offering they've paid in?

I would say that consistency would only require him to boot out illegals who are involved in criminal activity other than their simple illegal status, and return any money THEY have given him. Otherwise, I can't even connect the dots.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Daniel,
No one is going to turn in a good illegal. It's the dishonest ones committing crimes that are the cause for this uproar and rightly so!

My father employed illegals the whole time I was growing up. He fed them, clothed them, paid them, gave them beer (lol), etc. He even allowed them to stay at one of our ranches in Pearsall, TX, when they came through Eagle Pass. They were hard workers.

If the churches are taking them in, they need to act like Harriet Beecher Stowe and her family during the post-Civil War era. Harriett and her family started schools in the south to educate them so that they could assimilate into society and have a better quality of life.

They have a responsibility to the law to turn in ALL illegals. It's the Christian thing to do. Obedient to the law. And if not, by law, one could be implicated.

PO, I actually like what you're saying here. Can you believe it?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Good post--and it seems like the actual application of this bill is being obfuscated so that the pastor can be crucified (needlessly). It has to do with checking the status of someone who has already committed a crime of some sort.

MB, not sure that's fully true. I'm no expert in law, I've read over the bill. There's some controversy by what "lawful contact" means. Then later in the bill, it's reasserted what happens to those who provide shelter for illegal aliens, etc... Much more broad than "ID please. No ID on you then you are being detained until we can clear this up, or if you are illegal you are getting kicked out."

It's a type of mass deportation. Not a fan.

[DAII]

Hermana Rodriguez (the illegal criminal), can you swing by the church after you finish with your second job and make some tamales to sell this Sunday. We want to make sure Pastor is able to take that cruise this summer. He works so hard.

Yes, you can bring the kids but make sure they stay glued to their seats so they don't destroy anything.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

They have a responsibility to the law to turn in ALL illegals. It's the Christian thing to do. Obedient to the law. And if not, by law, one could be implicated.

Probably so, but a good helpless person wanting better? I couldn't turn them in.

PO, I actually like what you're saying here. Can you believe it?

Yes, totally shocked. LOL!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by DAII

http://www.apostolicnews.org/2010/05...s-for-sb-1070/

According to the "apostolicnews" news story (which appears to be a quote of another news source), the gentleman in question received "religious asylum" and is now a US citizen.

The new Arizona law doesn't even address those seeking asylum nor their family members. The new Arizona law merely seeks enforcement of current Federal immmigration statutes. If the AZ law is "unjust" - why has there been no criticisms of the Federal laws that are its foundation?

It's this kind of subterfuge that the media and advocates of illegal immigration are pushing in this debate. Bro. Montenegro's position isn't "hypocritical" at all. As a US citizen he is merely asking that US laws be enforced.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by DAII

But by definition being illegal is criminal activity.

It becomes circular

I understand, but I think there is generally understanding and compassion among people toward those who might be escaping hardship or squalor. From an American point of view, being compassionate to anyone in such a predicament is patriotic and based on our principles as a country. From a Christian point of view, compassion toward people is mandatory.

Within Christianity, we encounter situations where following the law to the letter would prevent the spreading of the Gospel. In those cases, God trumps man. In other cases, people should be encouraged to do the right thing, but I don't believe we should be acting aggressively to report them to authorities if they don't. Exceptions would be when we are put in danger by another person's criminal activity, or we see that they are endangering others.

Even the government in Arizona is not pushing the issue to THAT point--and neither is the pastor with his vote. They're simply saying that if a person commits another sort of crime, presumably of a more serious nature, that they can check their status. (I'm assuming to the end of deporting them if they are illegal.

The pastor may have taken a step away from leniency, but he definitely didn't vote on a bill that calls for any truly aggressive action against members of his congregation. While illegal immigrants may be criminal by definition, the bill in question doesn't seek to punish them for that act alone, but only if they couple it with other criminal activity.

IMO, that is perfectly reasonable. The hysterical response needs to be calmed down, not encouraged. (Speaking mainly of responses from church leaders.) The reaction is revealing a fear that some churches contain criminals guilty of more than just illegal entry. That's pretty interesting.

Also, it is possible that Pastor M objected to things he saw while growing up. That's common in young men. Perhaps he's trying to set some thing straight. I still see no reason for him to be filleted, and I'm appalled that he would be strung up by his ministerial peers.