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Aquila · #51 04-12-2010, 01:27 PM

Bow before a God who can do the unexplainable! lol

snicker1986 · #52 04-12-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're being overly simplistic.

I dont disagree that prayer can impart it, but if our friend from church (the one I spoke of originally) had as much as mumbled a few sylables for a few moments, I think they would have declared him to have the holy ghost.

It's obvious when the person speaks estatically on the floor for a long period of time, but a few muttered sylables?? That's what I often hear when someone is "pronouced saved" by the pastor

Aquila · #53 04-12-2010, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snicker1986

I dont disagree that prayer can impart it, but if our friend from church (the one I spoke of originally) had as much as mumbled a few sylables for a few moments, I think they would have declared him to have the holy ghost.

It's obvious when the person speaks estatically on the floor for a long period of time, but a few muttered sylables?? That's what I often hear when someone is "pronouced saved" by the pastor

I can see your concern... but how much speaking in tongues must one do to get "approved"?

snicker1986 · #54 04-12-2010, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

Well, I believe that what we call the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) is a filling with the Spirit, or an empowering operation of the Holy Spirit after salvation.

How did this happen to folks in our New Testament?

AD 30 in Acts chapter two about one fourth (120 out of over 500) members of the church were sitting in one accord and they were filled with the Holy Ghost. That's in Acts chapter 2.

Winter AD 31/32 in Samaria, Philip preached, the people received the Word, believed and were baptized in water. Then Peter and John came down from Jerusalem and ministered the HGB to them by the laying on of hands. That is in Acts chapter 8.

A little later Philip met an Ethiopian in the desert and preached Christ to him. After he was sure that the Ethiopian was really saved Philip agreed to baptize him. "They went both into the water, both Philip and the Eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord fell upon the eunuch and the angel of the Lord snatched Philip away..." That is also found in Acts chapter 8.

January 25, AD 32 Jesus appears to Saul on his way to Damascus. Saul is converted and submits his life to Jesus, calling Him Lord. Three days later a Messianic believer comes in to Saul to lay his hands on him and minister the HGB to him. That is found in Acts chapter 9.

AD 38 in Caesarea, Peter preaches to a group of Gentiles. They hear the Word, accept it, and as they rejoice in their newfound faith the Holy Spirit falls upon them. Later Peter recalling the event said that the Gentiles received the same Holy Ghost Baptism that he and others had received in Acts chapter 2. This is found in Acts chapter 10.

October AD 53 the Apostle Paul finds some Baptist believers in Ephesus. After he realizes that they have not only not received the HGB but have not even heard the full story of Jesus, he preaches to them. They get saved, they get baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus, and when Paul laid his hands upon them the Holy Spirit came upon them and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. This is found in Acts 19.

So, several times in our New Testament we read about folks who were converted or saved or born again who also received a subsequent experience called the HGB. There are other instances where it is not said whether the folks received the HGB or not. But, whenever folks did receive, it was either through the laying on of hands or the Spirit fell or came upon them.

Thanks Sam.

I do understand all that, but in all these cases the believers were either prayed over, or recieved the HGB spontaniously.

I no case (that we are told of) did some one TEACH them to repeat a certain phrase over and over again until the words kind of ran together into a mumble after which several elders would listen closely and debate together whether or not the person truly had spoken in tongues or not. This is what Aquilla was describing to me in his post.

The Bible implies that it was instant, and there was no doubt

Aquila · #55 04-12-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snicker1986

Thanks Sam.

I do understand all that, but in all these cases the believers were either prayed over, or recieved the HGB spontaniously.

I no case (that we are told of) did some one TEACH them to repeat a certain phrase over and over again until the words kind of ran together into a mumble after which several elders would listen closely and debate together whether or not the person truly had spoken in tongues or not. This is what Aquilla was describing to me in his post.

The Bible implies that it was instant, and there was no doubt

Those who received the Holy Ghost in biblical times were also in a highly religious culture. I think many in our secularized culture that questions and disclaims all things biblical struggle with faith. Not to mention there's a lot of condemnatory preaching taking place that stiffles faith and breeds a sense of guilt, shame, dread, and uncertainty when it comes to God. When the Son of Man returns will he find faith in the earth?

notofworks · #56 04-12-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

While 17 different groups of people, each speaking different languages, heard the 120 in their native tongue... still others mocked saying that the 120 were full of new wine. Ever hear an incoherent drunk??? Sluring their words and mispronouncing them, if they could speak at all... that's what the mockers heard. While many if not most heard their native tongue being spoken by the 120 the mockers weren't impressed, because they only heard gibberish.

I think you're assuming a LOT! I have a neighbor, who we're in the process of leading to faith, who is drunk every waking minute of every day. She's been to church a number of times, stone-drunk. I can understand everything she says.

But anyway, do you believe verse 13 could have been referring to the people that claimed to hear everything in their language?

snicker1986 · #57 04-12-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I can see your concern... but how much speaking in tongues must one do to get "approved"?

That's my concern...it seems like a silly game. The bible says to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I KNOW when I got the Holy Ghost, and I didnt need the pastor to tell me that god had now approved my membership in the "saved club".

and for the record, it was actually before I spoke in tongues that I got this (the pastor would disagree).

It was actually BEFORE I went to an apostolic church...it was actually in a denominational church.

It seems as if we are getting close to taking a man like my friend, and having him give up becuase the pastor and elders haven't "approved" his tongues

It just bothers me...

Aquila · #58 04-12-2010, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

I think you're assuming a LOT! I have a neighbor, who we're in the process of leading to faith, who is drunk every waking minute of every day. She's been to church a number of times, stone-drunk. I can understand everything she says.

I've had the same experience...but a few I've known have been way out drunk and unintelligiable.

Quote:

But anyway, do you believe verse 13 could have been referring to the people that claimed to hear everything in their language?

That's close to what I'm saying. I'm saying that the "tongues" most likey would have sounded like unintelligiable tongues as we know them... but the listeners heard their own language. Some only heard the gibberish.

Aquila · #59 04-12-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snicker1986

That's my concern...it seems like a silly game. The bible says to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I KNOW when I got the Holy Ghost, and I didnt need the pastor to tell me that god had now approved my membership in the "saved club".

and for the record, it was actually before I spoke in tongues that I got this (the pastor would disagree).

It was actually BEFORE I went to an apostolic church...it was actually in a denominational church.

It seems as if we are getting close to taking a man like my friend, and having him give up becuase the pastor and elders haven't "approved" his tongues

It just bothers me...

I agree. I was always told that once one begins speaking in tonuges (even if just a little) never shout, "You got it! You got it!" Let them tell you they got it.

So I can agree.

notofworks · #60 04-12-2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've had the same experience...but a few I've known have been way out drunk and unintelligiable.

That's close to what I'm saying. I'm saying that the "tongues" most likey would have sounded like unintelligiable tongues as we know them... but the listeners heard their own language. Some only heard the gibberish.

No, no.....I'm asking if you think it's possible that verse 13, when they said, "these men are drunk", were referring to the people claiming to understand what the 120 were saying. The scoffers may have just heard their original language. I think the problem I have is this concept that "tongues" is a gibberish that no one understands. Where, in the bible, does that take place?