looking for a prooftext ...

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Oh hi, P-O! How was church?

(Edit) Getting ready? What time's church, anyway? You didn't forget to spring forward, did you?

Hey, Tim-may! Sorry I left you hanging! LOL! I logged out after my last post.

We have church in the afternoon. No, I didn't forget to spring forward! I love this time of year!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree that it does not mean to act as a fool, but it certainly doesn't set a definite boundary on self-expression. You have centered on "audibly" raving". That is not the only definition. "Celebrate" can cover a lot of self-expression. "Clamorously foolish" appears to be defined in that way toward those that viewed someone like Michal. I would hope we wouldn't want to be in her camp.

We see that David "danced" in his praise. What does "dance" mean in this instance? - "to whirl". He was whirling while he was dancing. That was how he wanted to express his deep and heartfelt worship. He danced and whirled with ALL of his "might", which means that he danced/whirled with ALL of his "strength."

We can look at two children laughing and looking at each other. That doesn't mean that EVERYONE that expresses themselves, in such as way, is also behaving like the children.

I have seen sincere worship in many forms. I have seem people, who were not sincere, for whatever reason, doing the same things. Do I exclude all self-express because of this? That would be foolish.

If someone feels, as David, that whirling is directing their praise TO God - let them whirl!

I think it is unfortunate for you to say you know the heart of every person, in their worship, by saying:



If David danced with all of his might/strength, what would be the absolute difference in someone being excited in their leaping or running? There is no difference. Therefore, it would be disingenuous of you to label that as excitement only and emphatically label that as not toward God nor an actual praise to God.

The "(clamorously) foolish" phrase is an artifact of the old Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. You won't find this phrase being used for "hillel" or "halal" in any other sources. To me, this is an excellent reason for abandoning the use of this phrase.

I would hope that no one ever abandons being "joyful" however.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The "(clamorously) foolish" phrase is an artifact of the old Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. You won't find this phrase being used for "hillel" or "halal" in any other sources. To me, this is an excellent reason for abandoning the use of this phrase.

I would hope that no one ever abandons being "joyful" however.

Do you have a source for that information? I have never seen "halal" to not include "clamorously foolish" even when not referencing Strong's.

"halal", in Arabic, also means "permissible". It is a Quranic word meaning anything that is ‘lawful, legal, licit, legitimate, permissible, allowable, permitted, allowed, admissible, authorized, unprohibited, unforbidden or unproscribed or acceptable to all aspects of daily life and betterment of social context.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

הָלַל hâlal, haw-lal´; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causat. to celebrate; also to stultify:—(make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool (-ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, [sing, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.
Strong, J., S.T.D., LL.D. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

The idea of Halal or praise is directed TOWARDS the object, in this case God.

On directing our praise towards the object - God. I agree! I have read this in several places through the years:

The guiding light
In ancient times the stars would guide one on their journey. The Hebrew verb הלל (halal, Strong's #7725) is the shining light of these stars - For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light הלל (Isaiah 13:10). This same word is also translated as "praise" but Hebraicly means to "look toward another as a shining light." When the Psalms say, Praise Yah (halelu-Yah) (Psalm 135:3) it is literally saying "Look to Yah as the light that will guide you on your journey."
http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Anci...ayofYahweh.htm

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Do you have a source for that information? I have never seen "halal" to not include "clamorously foolish" even when not referencing Strong's.

"halal", in Arabic, also means "permissible". It is a Quranic word meaning anything that is ‘lawful, legal, licit, legitimate, permissible, allowable, permitted, allowed, admissible, authorized, unprohibited, unforbidden or unproscribed or acceptable to all aspects of daily life and betterment of social context.

Brown Driver & Briggs Lexicon to the Old Testament
Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon
Benner's The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible
The Internation Standard Bible Encyclopedia
The Bible Commentary and The New Bible Dictionary ed. by D.A. Carson
The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon by Benjamin Davidson
The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament by Ludwig Koehler, and Walter Baumgartner
Original Language PC Study Tools Collection with UBS Handbooks, Keil and Delitzch Commentary, Louw & Nida Lexicon, TDNT, TWOT, and more by Olive Tree Bible Software
Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament by E. Jenni & C. Westermann
Vine's Expository Dictionary W.E. Vine
The Complete Word Study Old Testament by Baker & Carpenter

I have never seen "(clamoursly) foolishly" anywhere outside of Strong's or perhaps in popular works that had used Strong's as their source.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Brown Driver & Briggs Lexicon to the Old Testament
Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon
Benner's The Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible
The Internation Standard Bible Encyclopedia
The Bible Commentary and The New Bible Dictionary ed. by D.A. Carson
The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon by Benjamin Davidson
The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament by Ludwig Koehler, and Walter Baumgartner
Original Language PC Study Tools Collection with UBS Handbooks, Keil and Delitzch Commentary, Louw & Nida Lexicon, TDNT, TWOT, and more by Olive Tree Bible Software
Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament by E. Jenni & C. Westermann
Vine's Expository Dictionary W.E. Vine
The Complete Word Study Old Testament by Baker & Carpenter

Since the BDB is considered to be the most comprehensive Hebrew lexicon, can you post a quote about "halal"? TIA!

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Apocrypha

Good example... Paul on Mars Hill using the philosophers and the shrines on the unknown god (which has a interesting back story from a plague in Athens.. I can find and link if anyones curious). I wonder if today Paul would be using examples from the TV show Lost or winning a medal in the Winter Olympic to win the race.

I can't see paul quoting from the TV show lost. winter olympics, well he already did that, though I think it was summer olypics in his day.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Since the BDB is considered to be the most comprehensive Hebrew lexicon, can you post a quote about "halal"? TIA!

The New BDBG Hebrew-Aramaic Lexicon goes a step further. It shows that most likely there are two verb roots in biblical Hebrew spelled halal. One derives from an older Semitic root meaning “to shine”, and the other from an older Semitic root meaning “to be boastful” (pp. 237b-238a). Hêlel derives from the first root. It has a linguistic relationship to the Assyrian Mushtilil, which was also an epithet of Venus as “the morning star” (p. 237b). But if Isaiah meant to point out the boastful character of the “king of Babylon”, then he would have used a different word derived from the second root. The well-known name Hillel (הלל ) or “praised” is derived from this root, as is Hillul (הלול ) or “praise” (p. 239b). Interestingly, hillel (הלל ) also means “one boasting” in Psalms 10:3 (cf. p. 238a). Again, halal may mean “to be boastful” in a good or a bad sense: praising either God, idols, other (good or bad) people, or (in a bad sense) oneself.

http://www.rakkav.com/qahal/pdfs/project_070911_01b.pdf

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Since the BDB is considered to be the most comprehensive Hebrew lexicon, can you post a quote about "halal"? TIA!

H1984
הלל
hâlal
BDB Definition:
1) to shine
1a) (Qal) to shine (figuratively of God’s favour)
1b) (Hiphil) to flash forth light
2) to praise, boast, be boastful
2a) (Qal)
2a1) to be boastful
2a2) boastful ones, boasters (participle)
2b) (Piel)
2b1) to praise
2b2) to boast, make a boast
2c) (Pual)
2c1) to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
2d) (Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one’s boast
2e) (Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool
2f) (Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 499, 500

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

H1984
הלל
hâlal
BDB Definition:
1) to shine
1a) (Qal) to shine (figuratively of God’s favour)
1b) (Hiphil) to flash forth light
2) to praise, boast, be boastful
2a) (Qal)
2a1) to be boastful
2a2) boastful ones, boasters (participle)
2b) (Piel)
2b1) to praise
2b2) to boast, make a boast
2c) (Pual)
2c1) to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
2d) (Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one’s boast
2e) (Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool
2f) (Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number: 499, 500

Where did Strong's, if that is true in all cases, pick up "(clamorously) foolish"?