I just realized what the other side really meant when saying it wasn't the bible that was not clear it was humans. I think what they really mean is that the bible is the clearest book that God could have given mankind but even with the clearest book that he could have given we as men still can't understand it.
Really? That's what they mean? They don't have much faith in God, then!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I just realized what the other side really meant when saying it wasn't the bible that was not clear it was humans. I think what they really mean is that the bible is the clearest book that God could have given mankind but even with the clearest book that he could have given we as men still can't understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog
lol... I imagine they would agree with what I said, maybe I'm wrong though...
And besides they at least have faith that God gave us a written book unlike some people Timmy :P
Good morning! I'm fixin' to nail your hide!
God has opened up to every man the basic principles of the Gospel - Death, burial and resurrection. The clearer parts that usher us into His presence. Not only that, but we are assured that no man can come to God unless the Spirit draw. Therefore, we understand, that he knows the hearts of all men.
I know from experience that when I become a bit lax in my relationship with Him, and we might as well admit that we are not at the top of our game 24/7 in our walk with God, we can get stagnant in understanding more of the depths of His Word. There are depths to His Word. If we were at the top of our game, we wouldn't need His Spirit to lead and guide us.
When I renew myself and become more disciplined, I begin a new hunger, I understand more and I feel a stronger anointing on my life.
Let's not pretend that God opens up all of his Word, at once, and in totality. It becomes clear in direct proportion to our commitment in our relationship with Him.
Here is what Paul says in Hebrews 5:12-13 " For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe."
And here is good instruction for the new Christian and the inexperienced - 1 Peter 2:2"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"
As you can see, the Word itself bears out that we learn, understand and comprehend more if we would desire to grow by strengthening and building ourselves on our most holy faith. The inexperienced grab the "milk" - the clear things - and build upon that.
Again, if the Word is not clear, it is our understanding that is not clear. As we grow in sincerity, His Word and our understanding becomes more clear.
We all know, in our own lives, what we could change to have a deeper relationship with God. We know the things that have become idols and distractions. We all wrestle with these things. We all know the things that are a weakness to us. Our flesh wants to be satisfied and we must do our best to discipline ourselves. We have to keep trying.
God has opened up to every man the basic principles of the Gospel - Death, burial and resurrection. The clearer parts that usher us into His presence. Not only that, but we are assured that no man can come to God unless the Spirit draw. Therefore, we understand, that he knows the hearts of all men.
I know from experience that when I become a bit lax in my relationship with Him, and we might as well admit that we are not at the top of our game 24/7 in our walk with God, we can get stagnant in understanding more of the depths of His Word. There are depths to His Word. If we were at the top of our game, we wouldn't need His Spirit to lead and guide us.
When I renew myself and become more disciplined, I begin a new hunger, I understand more and I feel a stronger anointing on my life.
Let's not pretend that God opens up all of his Word, at once, and in totality. It becomes clear in direct proportion to our commitment in our relationship with Him.
Here is what Paul says in Hebrews 5:12-13 " For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe."
And here is good instruction for the new Christian and the inexperienced - 1 Peter 2:2"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"
As you can see, the Word itself bears out that we learn, understand and comprehend more if we would desire to grow by strengthening and building ourselves on our most holy faith. The inexperienced grab the "milk" - the clear things - and build upon that.
Again, if the Word is not clear, it is our understanding that is not clear. As we grow in sincerity, His Word and our understanding becomes more clear.
We all know, in our own lives, what we could change to have a deeper relationship with God. We know the things that have become idols and distractions. We all wrestle with these things. We all know the things that are a weakness to us. Our flesh wants to be satisfied and we must do our best to discipline ourselves. We have to keep trying.
Ummm aren't your comments which I colored red exactly what you quoted me saying. You believe: that the word is clear but not to humans. (At least those who are sinners or don't have a perfect relationship with God). That God gave mankind the bible and that it is the clearest book that God could have given us.
The above is exactly what you will find in the quotes you quoted of me... So why do you disagree?
Ummm aren't your comments which I colored red exactly what you quoted me saying. You believe: that the word is clear but not to humans. (At least those who are sinners or don't have a perfect relationship with God). That God gave mankind the bible and that it is the clearest book that God could have given us.
The above is exactly what you will find in the quotes you quoted of me... So why do you disagree?
I don't see where she said it was the clearest book God could have given us. Maybe she thinks He could have done a better job!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Ummm aren't your comments which I colored red exactly what you quoted me saying. You believe: that the word is clear but not to humans. (At least those who are sinners or don't have a perfect relationship with God). That God gave mankind the bible and that it is the clearest book that God could have given us.
The above is exactly what you will find in the quotes you quoted of me... So why do you disagree?
I think we are having a disconnect. I believe that God's Word is perfectly clear, in that, He knew what He was doing and what He wanted written. It is a privilege and honor for us to have our understanding opened as we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. Therefore, I find it erroneous to say that the Word is unclear. It is not unclear to God and is only unclear to us, if we don't continue to study and grow.
For instance, when the Word says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Mark 10:25
I studied that out and found that a city's walls have several large gates of iron, which are always two-leaved. Isaiah 45:1 mentions this - "I will open before him the two-leaved gates." When Samson took the "doors of the gate" (Judges 16:3), it means that he unhitched both leaves. Once the gates of the city were shut, they would only open them for a great official who might be on an important errand. A smaller door was fixed into the larger one and was called, "the needle's eye." Therefore, we have Mark 10:25 alluding to that.
We could read it and think of a sewing needle, but there is imagery and depth that we can only find by sincere study. That is what I am referring to when I say that the Word is clear and only clear if we "continue" to study.
Some things are more clear to me every year as I continue to read. It's exciting. They certainly won't get any clearer if I didn't read His Word. So, I can't sit here and say that I can emphatically say the Bible is unclear. And I know, for myself, when God shows me something in His Word, I never forget it. I will, many times, forget something that I read here, in a book or an on-line link.
Somethings I have not understood and put it down because I didn't want to read something more into it or make it interpret to fit what I wanted to understand. Some time down the road, it became clear and my understanding was opened.
So, what I am saying is - it is a privilege for His Word to be opened up to us and we have to earn that right. We have to want it and sometimes we have to wait for it as we grow, mature and gain experience.
When you say the Word is "unclear" to man, you are giving me the impression that it is some cruel joke or something. I know that is not what you are saying, but I can't think of how to word that better. LOL!
Interesting, though, that both methods lead different people to wildly different paths.
I said that it is not that clear.
But some very important things become clear, such as love for God, basics of good and evil. Treating other as valuable and precious, respect of other.
If God had wanted to, He could have made directions for life unquestionable, that is our task to separate the precious from the vile, yet not in this life will all see and understand scripture exactly alike. That is life's challenge, so we should seek to know God, to understand how He would have us to live and understand His purpose, He will complete what is lacking in the end.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
But some very important things become clear, such as love for God, basics of good and evil. Treating other as valuable and precious, respect of other.
If God had wanted to, He could have made directions for life unquestionable, that is our task to separate the precious from the vile, yet not in this life will all see and understand scripture exactly alike. That is life's challenge, so we should seek to know God, to understand how He would have us to live and understand His purpose, He will complete what is lacking in the end.
Well, I think it's interesting that God leads different people different ways (if He does lead people)! And interesting that studying the Bible does the same thing. But that's understandable, given that it is "not that clear".
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Could it be???.... That as Pentecostals and Apostolics in particular, that we come into the Kingdom of God immediately introduced to the idea that the teachings of "our church" and our Pastor are RIGHT! regardless! and everyone else is wrong? Instead of understanding we are working overtime to make the Bible fit what we have been told we believe?
Instead of an open mind, could we be prejudiced from the beginning, to think only the way we are told to think? .. And our understanding is totally from the influence of those who are instructing us.
Are we reading the Bible with an open mind, letting the Spirit guide us? Or is our understanding total affected by the "argument" of those around us.
Is it the Bible that is unclear or is it our mind that is unclear?
Are we allowed to do any "working out our own salvation, with fear and trembling?"
“Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” 2 Corinthians 3:6, KJV.
How much does the Spirit give us life and "understanding"?
Been Thinkin
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