Lot's Revelation of Grace - Page 6

notofworks · #51 10-31-2009, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

The example used is a marriage. If based on love, the man does not have to continually beat the woman into submission with commands to cook, clean, have sex, and be faithful nor does the woman have to continually beat up the man with commands to work, help with the children and other tasks, have sex, and be faithful.

Great analogy.

notofworks · #52 10-31-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Great post!~

Why thanks, RG!! Can I be Admin now? I'm itching to get my finger on that "ban" button!

No wait.......grace. I forgot.

mizpeh · #53 10-31-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

ABSOLUTELY!!!

The teaching of grace frequently suffers because of our fear that once people understand how great God's grace really is, they'll just go live like the devil. But the TOTAL opposite is true. The more I understand God's grace and just how all-covering it really is, how abundant it is, how complete it is, the more I desire to be close to him.

There need not be any fear of people getting "carried away" with God's grace. Grace inspires. Grace draws. Grace covers. Grace envelops. It drives us to live like warnings and fear never could!

His grace causes me to love Him more and to desire to please Him and not injure Him in any way.

Raven · #54 10-31-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I was enjoying your story and then, wow it took a bit of a turn and became well frankly unbiblical and illogical.

What does the teaching of a man, call him pastor if you like, have anything to do with, living an ungodly lifestyle? There is no foundation whatsoever for this jump in logic.

Then the story of Lot gets completely twisted to try and support your assertions.

for instance you say:

And yet Peter, inspired by the Holy Spirit, writes:

II Peter 2:7-8
But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day.

Is it not entirely possible that Lot's lingering was to try and urge his family to come with him? That at least is plausible, your story contradicts the Scripture itself.

So it seems to me you have read a lot more into Lot's life than Peter did. Those of us who embrace grace see this from you folks who want to beat people over the head all the time. The interesting thing here is that you criticize and critique a man that God calls righteous.

Then you just keep going down the road of how horrible Lot is, reading into Scripture what it doesn't say and ignoring what it does say. The angel of the Lord tells him it was fine to stay on the plains, but that didn't fit into your sermon, so we will omit that fact.

Then you make this huge leap in logic that "grace" somehow causes Lot all these problems and insinuating that those that don't "listen to the pastor" will end up like Lot.

Frankly I would rather be like Lot, at least I know that God declared Lot righteous.

To his own master he stands or falls. You cut the legs out from under a man that God called righteous. Talk about a disgrace.

Good reply! Some times I'm a lot like Lot and I don't like Lot a lot but ...... my Father's grace is amazing and I embrace it daily.

Raven

Baron1710 · #55 10-31-2009, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrford

And obviously you have forgotten that "righteous man" offered his daughters sexually to strangers, pleaded with God to not go where God wanted him to go and committed incest with his daughters. There is scripture...

If I have twisted the meaning of the Epistle you have twisted the result of the "righteous" man's actions.

I didn't forget any of those things, I find a number of things troubling that happened in the OT that I can't explain. Like the guy who turns his concubine out and goes to bed while she is gang raped and then he acts indignant at what happens. This is similar to what Lot does in the passage in question. I don't get it.

However, whatever flaws he had he was righteous in the eyes of God, and that my friend, is where it matters.

How have I twisted the result of his actions? And why would you put righteous in quotes? You seem to still have a problem seeing Lot as righteous.

You started off with a great story, but if I can take liberty with your story, what you go on to say is that the women from that day on stole even more because she had received grace from the mayor. She then began to beat her grand children because they ate the candy she stole the next week.

Be afraid of Grace it will lead you down the wrong road.

*AQuietPlace* · #56 10-31-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

His grace causes me to love Him more and to desire to please Him and not injure Him in any way.

rrford · #57 10-31-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

ABSOLUTELY!!!

The teaching of grace frequently suffers because of our fear that once people understand how great God's grace really is, they'll just go live like the devil. But the TOTAL opposite is true. The more I understand God's grace and just how all-covering it really is, how abundant it is, how complete it is, the more I desire to be close to him.

There need not be any fear of people getting "carried away" with God's grace. Grace inspires. Grace draws. Grace covers. Grace envelops. It drives us to live like warnings and fear never could!

It would seem to me that some of you arer saying that grace can only be used for good and not evil. What then do we do with the words of Jude when he said "Turning the grace of God into lasciviousness?"

rrford · #58 10-31-2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I didn't forget any of those things, I find a number of things troubling that happened in the OT that I can't explain. Like the guy who turns his concubine out and goes to bed while she is gang raped and then he acts indignant at what happens. This is similar to what Lot does in the passage in question. I don't get it.

However, whatever flaws he had he was righteous in the eyes of God, and that my friend, is where it matters.

How have I twisted the result of his actions? And why would you put righteous in quotes? You seem to still have a problem seeing Lot as righteous.

You started off with a great story, but if I can take liberty with your story, what you go on to say is that the women from that day on stole even more because she had received grace from the mayor. She then began to beat her grand children because they ate the candy she stole the next week.

Be afraid of Grace it will lead you down the wrong road.

That is not what I am saying at all. Did you not read where I pointed out that Lot was mistaking mercy for grace? Somehow it weems we are saying the same thing but talking past each other. All men need, and receive, grace. Both the righteous and the unrighteous. A righteous man abusing grace has the same results of an unrighteous man abusing grace.

jfrog · #59 10-31-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrford

That is not what I am saying at all. Did you not read where I pointed out that Lot was mistaking mercy for grace? Somehow it weems we are saying the same thing but talking past each other. All men need, and receive, grace. Both the righteous and the unrighteous. A righteous man abusing grace has the same results of an unrighteous man abusing grace.

See how much easier it is to explain when ya leave the stories out of it

I think everyone can agree with what I have bolded.

EDIT: Then again on second though, how can anyone abuse unmerited favor.

mizpeh · #60 10-31-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrford

It would seem to me that some of you arer saying that grace can only be used for good and not evil. What then do we do with the words of Jude when he said "Turning the grace of God into lasciviousness?"

Isn't that what the teaching of once saved always saved does?