Let's Talk about This. Seriously!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by tstew

I pray for him. I think it is vital that we have some voices like his to bridge the gap.

Originally Posted by tstew

EA, I don't find this to be true at all. I think some tough decisions and honest communication needs to happen, but I don't think the org is dead by a long shot. Hopefully, it will will find the balanced, common ground so many people are looking for.

On a related note, I would be interested to see how the numbers among young ministers and members are in the other established organizations. We live in a country that has people turning away from all religion in great numbers...particularly among the youth.

Originally Posted by tstew

In many of the circles I run with, the last few years have been times of explosive growth. I know that there are ebbs and flows and sometimes things vary from region to region, but I don't think the org is dead. I think we absolutely must evaluate ourselves honestly and prayerfully, but if we do so, the potential for growth and really standing out as a true beacon among so much nauseating "Christianity" is there.

Originally Posted by tstew

I pray that things are balanced out and that each generation realizes how much they need each other. I am young and probably more "progressive" than some, but I shudder at the thought of a bunch of us young, relatively inexperienced guys going out and doing our own thing. I think we need the wisdom and stability of a generation that has been able to hold its anchor for decades. However, we need that generation to trust us and embrace the kinds of changes that are logical, natural, and that do not change the message. I think it is not only necessary, but possible, particularly when men like Bro. Shaw say what he is saying.

Originally Posted by tstew

I understand that. First of all however, I don't think it was everybody in the older generation who did those kinds of things. There were many great men and women of God who have stood the test of time, whose works are evident to all. I think that the cover has been torn off of many of those who were abusive and many people see them for what they were.

There are also some people in leadership who are wise enough to see trends and see that some of what you could get away with in years past will no longer fly. My point is that we need each other...we need to find a way to mix the weeping and the shouting and I do believe it is possible.

Originally Posted by tstew

Yeah, those are my feelings as well. I just think that the day is coming when they will realize that ultimately they have no choice. I think that is a lot of what Bro. Shaw is saying. People tell me I'm just an optimist...but I honestly do see daylight

Originally Posted by tstew

...and I also think that this needs to work both ways. The younger need to trust the older a little and not feel like we have all the answers and a better way to do everything.

Originally Posted by tstew

I didn't say it was the best thing

BTW did you see my next post about how some of this trust needs to flow both ways.

Originally Posted by tstew

Pel, I believe I see some of the same problems you see, but I'm just saying that not every new thing is good...or every good thing new. I think that the kind of balance that BRo Shaw is talking about is going to be best for both generations and the world.

Thank you, Stew! Very insightful thinking - balanced and just..... right!!!! This is how it should be. Rodney Shaw has it right - let's look at both sides and garner the best of the best. No one side is going to be 100% correct in all areas - we need each other.

I liked what Shaw said, "Understanding one’s theological and historical roots is crucial...Contemporary books by malcontents and revolutionaries cannot be one’s primary source for theological reflection and development. Before Apostolics adopt things in such books, they need a firm sense of their own theology and history. Before we can digest and appropriate larger criticisms of Christianity, we need to know who we are and how we got here.....However, when Apostolics react to dysfunctional systems or stifling leadership, we are reacting to something entirely different. To latch on to the reactions of others means we are aligning ourselves with others based upon our core dislikes, not our core beliefs."

And, of course, the end of his article - Here is the Rub - excellent - couldn't agree with him more!

http://rodneyshaw.wordpress.com/2009...nd-apostolics/

[The Lemon]

Well.....I know I will probably be thrown under the bus for this but here goes:

I personally did not like the article much until the last page and I have a few reasons why.

1. Some of the comments about the "Fundamentals" of Christianity that should not be compromised are not defined....besides the obvious born again, what else is he referring to?

2. There are too many gerneralities to point out, for example, the average church goers friend does not have messed up hair and holes in the jeans....he knows this how? Comes to this conclusion how? That is only one of MANY assumptions and generalities in the article.

3. Don't get me started on the "History" of modern Oneness Pentecostalism, from what I have seen and read, the accounts differ greatly both in tolerance, doctrine, etc. The most reliable source for our roots is the Word of God....not Frank Ewart.

I don't have time to list all the generalities, but what I will say is that not ALL church's that are being relevant or progressive, Postmodern, etc. are forsaking truth to do it...I realize he does not specifically say that ALL are, but the generalities can draw a reader to that conclusion rather easily.

My final thoughts.......(I know thank God!)

The last page was awesome, and Brother Shaw does write good stuff, I am not slamming him. One of the biggest issues that the younger generation is dealing with is where some of the sacred traditions came from in the first place. Issues like Holiness are Biblical and essential, what is not is alot of the flagship mandated standards that are not.

There needs to be more brevity on stances that are clearly custom and tradition. Whilenot all tradition is bad, not all security blanket tradition is good or right necessarily either. Brother Shaw is right....we need to talk......from experience I just hope all generations will have an open heart and open Bible.....not just open mouths.

Brother Stew....your posts are so good, balanced, and mixed with wisdom....my rant is lacking that......but I am a 33 year old preacher and I have seen and see both sides. Like my Pastor now says....."Talk is Cheap" If it stays an article and nothing more, there will be alot of younger ministers who leave out the back door. Pushing the status quo from the upper ranks is not going to amount to alot of positive change in my opinion.

We do need each other.......and most of all we need the truth of the Word!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

...
3. Don't get me started on the "History" of modern Oneness Pentecostalism, from what I have seen and read, the accounts differ greatly both in tolerance, doctrine, etc. The most reliable source for our roots is the Word of God....not Frank Ewart.
...

I have a hearty "Amen!" for most of what you said, right on! You'll need to get a ticket if you want to ride under the bus here...

However, #3 (above) opens the way for grosser generalities than anything Shaw had summed up. Our "roots" are found in the "Word of God?" ???

Taking that approach we will find an even broader playing field than anything OP's have created. Are you prepared for that?

The simple fact of the matter remains, there was no "Acts 2:38 church" likened to the 20th century OP movement anywhere in history until 1913.

Ignoring 2,000 years of church history and pretending like it didn't happen is not the basis for an authentic Christian life. To truly be "relevant" and not the "irrelevant sideshow" that we've been, we need to engage broader segments of reality. (Not really addressed to you, The Lemon, but to "us" in general).

[The Lemon]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I have a hearty "Amen!" for most of what you said, right on! You'll need to get a ticket if you want to ride under the bus here...

However, #3 (above) opens the way for grosser generalities than anything Shaw had summed up. Our "roots" are found in the "Word of God?" ???

Taking that approach we will find an even broader playing field than anything OP's have created. Are you prepared for that?

The simple fact of the matter remains, the was no "Acts 2:38 church" likened to the 20th century OP movement anywhere in history until 1913.

Ignoring 2,000 years of church history and pretending like it didn't happen is not the basis for an authentic Christian life.

Good point!..........thats what I get for posting past my bedtime!! By "roots" I meant the foundation of our walk with God....the Word is the foundation...yes we need to take care how we build on it, and certainly many good Godly men and women have left legacies of service, love, and sacrifice.

I am not advocating throwing the last 2,000 years in the can...I am just saying that alot of the "History" mentioned alot of times is not totally acurate and yes is ver "General" If I have to fall on something, I would rather it be the Word - let it break me....not an agenda or half truth or supposed accuracy.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Good point!..........thats what I get for posting past my bedtime!! By "roots" I meant the foundation of our walk with God....the Word is the foundation...yes we need to take care how we build on it, and certainly many good Godly men and women have left legacies of service, love, and sacrifice.

I am not advocating throwing the last 2,000 years in the can...I am just saying that alot of the "History" mentioned alot of times is not totally acurate and yes is ver "General" If I have to fall on something, I would rather it be the Word - let it break me....not an agenda or half truth or supposed accuracy.

"Correcto el mundo!" as they would say at one of Sister A's tire burning parties.