|
Tab Menu 1
Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun! |
|
|
01-21-2009, 09:53 PM
|
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
When the Lord God (Elohim) said this:
22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Gen. 3:22
Was he speaking to himself?
Or was he speaking to Angels?
Another person of God?
|
01-21-2009, 10:12 PM
|
Pride of the Neighborhood
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,166
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
Different context. There is no indication that the angels had any part in the creation of man, hence it would make no sense that God would say "Let us make man..." to them.
When discussing the fall of man it is reasonable to think that God is speaking to angels since they, like God, knew good and evil.
__________________
When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
|
01-21-2009, 10:51 PM
|
|
Honorary Admin
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
Posts: 6,287
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
Well many Jewish teachers have taught that Elohim spoke to Angels "let us make man in our image".
|
I've not ready from any reputable Jewish "teacher" who has had that take on Gen. 1:26. Could you site the source please?
__________________
"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
Executive Servant http://www.newlife-church.org
|
01-21-2009, 11:49 PM
|
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManOfWord
I've not ready from any reputable Jewish "teacher" who has had that take on Gen. 1:26. Could you site the source please?
|
Reputable? To whom? I can give you Jewish teachers whether you count them as reputable I dont know.
Here is one
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Orthodox-...s-1-26-say.htm
Answer
Hello Nathan,
I am assuming you're asking me the translation of Gen 1:26. The Hebrew text is contained here
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0101.htm
- this interface doesn't let me use the Hebrew characters.
The text literally is translated like this:
26 And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'
I can only assume that you're asking me this question because this is a surefire way for Christians to slam-dunk a concept of trinity down your throat. Well, that would not be a way to do it. I'd like to quote Rabbi Tovia Singer below, and credit him with this answer in its entirety - I am simply repeating what he said in answer to this missionary claim.
This verse appears in missionary literature quite often in spite of the fact that this argument has been answered countless times throughout the centuries. Let’s examine Genesis 1:26, as I have quoted it above.
With limited knowledge of the Jewish scriptures, missionaries advance the above verse in as evidence that there was a plurality in the godhead which was responsible for creation. What other explanation could adequately account for the Bible’s use of the plural pronouns such as “us” and “our” in this verse?
This argument, however, is grievously flawed. In fact, a great number of Trinitarian Christian scholars have long abandoned the notion that Genesis 1:26 implies a plurality of persons in the godhead. Rather, Christian scholars overwhelmingly agree that the plural pronoun in this verse is a reference to God’s ministering angels who were created previously, and the Almighty spoke majestically in the plural, consulting His heavenly court. Let’s read the comments of a number of preeminent Trinitarian Bible scholars on this subject. For example, the evangelical Christian author Gordon J. Wenham, who is no foe of the Trinity and authored a widely respected two-volume commentary on the Book of Genesis, writes on this verse,
Christians have traditionally seen [ Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author.
The New International Version is hardly a Bible that can be construed as being friendly to Judaism. Yet, the NIV Study Bible also writes in its commentary on Genesis 1:26,
Us . . . Our . . . Our. God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court. (see 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; I Kings 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jeremiah 23:18)
Charles Caldwell Ryrie, a highly regarded dispensationalist professor of Biblical Studies at the Philadelphia College of Bible and author of the widely read Bible commentary, The Ryrie Study Bible, writes in his short and to-the-point annotation on Genesis 1:26,
Us . . . Our. Plurals of majesty.
The Liberty Annotated Study Bible, a Bible commentary published by the Reverend Jerry Falwell’s Liberty University, similarly remarks on this verse,
The plural pronoun “Us” is most likely a majestic plural from the standpoint of Hebrew grammar and syntax.
The 10-volume commentary by Keil and Delitzsch is considered by many to be the most influential exposition on the “Old Testament” in evangelical circles. Yet in its commentary on Genesis 1:26, we find,
The plural “We” was regarded by the fathers and earlier theologians almost unanimously as indicative of the Trinity; modern commentators, on the contrary, regard it either as pluralis majestatis . . . No other explanation is left, therefore, than to regard it as pluralis majestatis . . . .
The question that immediately comes to mind is: What would compel these evangelical scholars -- all of whom are Trinitarian -- to determinedly conclude that Genesis 1:26 does not suggest the Trinity, but rather a majestic address to the angelic hosts of heaven? Why would the comments of the above conservative Christian writers so perfectly harmonize with the Jewish teaching on this verse?
The answer to this question is simple. If you search the Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his angels known as Cherubim to stand at the gate of the Garden of Eden waving a flaming sword so that mankind is prevented from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine Genesis 3:22-24.
Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” -- therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what is intended by the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of Bible sources from the Jewish scriptures to support its position that “God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”
Outsiders often wonder what binding force keeps the Jewish people united in faith. This is not so odd a question when we consider the inner conflict that has followed our people throughout our extraordinary history. Bear in mind that regardless of the turbulent quarrels that fester among us, the oneness of God remains the binding thread which unites the Jewish people in history and witness. The teachings of the Torah were designed to set forever in the national conscience of the Jewish people the idea that God is one alone and therefore the only object of our devotion and worship.
Again, Rabbi Tovia Singer originally compiled these words and I am very grateful to his guidance in this matter.
All the best,
Eli
|
01-22-2009, 12:06 AM
|
|
Registered Member
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
And again the question is since we are concerned about the Jewish view of things, who was Elohim to the Biblical Jews?
Here is the plain scriptural answer. Jacob who's name was changed to ISRAEL by the Angel of Elohim tells us who Elohim was.
And he blessed Joseph, and said, ELOHIM, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the ELOHIM which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16: The ANGEL which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen. 48:15-16
All the Rabbi's are just speculating or teaching about what ISRAEL the Father of their twelve tribes plainly said.
To the Jewish writers of scripture Elohim was one. It was Elohim who was Creator in Genesis.
In Genesis Jacob/Israel says Elohim was the Angel who fed him all his life long and redeemed him from all evil.
If this Angel was not Elohim he was giving more glory to an Angel than to God.
Elohim (Angel of YHWH) said to Angels "let us make man in our image".
Out of courtesy to these very powerful, majestic, beings he included them in his speech.
Like if I were to say to my family "let us go get a pizza". Then we went to the store and I bought a pizza.
Its not that hard.
Then Elohim who himself had an Angel image made man in his image.
|
01-22-2009, 02:31 AM
|
|
DOING THE FIRST WORKS
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,069
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
Let us make man...
So he did: Adam.
He fell and all was lost.
He did again: The last Adam, Jesus
He did not fall. All is being restored.
|
01-22-2009, 11:24 AM
|
|
A Student of the Word
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
It might help the participants in this discussion if it was pointed out that the term Elohim is not a name, but an identifier. god(s), angel(s), might one(s) from the root 'el, meaning 1) god, god-like one, mighty one (a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes (b) angels (c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations) (d) God, the one true God, Jehovah (2) mighty things in nature (3) strength, power
From the Hebrew letter concept meaning "many trees", from which the usage denoting great power and strength are derived.
See:
Rashi
and note Power: Possession of control, authority, or influence over others physical might. The power
or might of one who rules or teaches. One who yokes with another. Often applies to rulers or a god. [masc] [AHLB: 1012-H (c)] [Strong's: 430, 433]
Mighty.one: One who holds authority over others, such as a judge, chief or god. In the sense of being yoked to one another. [masc] [AHLB: 1012-A (N)] [Strong's: 410]
As listed in the Hebrew Text and Lexicon of Genesis By Jeff A. Benner
Then, Rashi in his commentary states:
26. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and they shall rule over the fish of the sea and over the fowl of the heaven and over the animals and over all the earth and over all the creeping things that creep upon the earth."
---------------
Let us make man From here we learn the humility of the Holy One, blessed be He. Since man was created in the likeness of the angels, and they would envy him, He consulted them. And when He judges kings, He consults with His Heavenly household, for so we find regarding Ahab, that Micah said to him, ( I Kings 22:19): “I saw the Lord seated on His throne, and all the host of heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.” Now do “left” or “right” apply to Him ?! But rather, [the passage means that] these [angels] were standing on the right to defend, and these [angels] were standing on the left to prosecute. Likewise, ( Dan. 4:14): “By the decree of the destructive angels is the matter, and by the word of the holy ones is the edict.” Here too, He took counsel with His heavenly household. He said to them, “Among the heavenly beings, there are some in My likeness. If there are none in My likeness among the earthly beings, there will be envy among the creatures of the Creation. ” - [from Tanchuma, Shemoth 18; Gen. Rabbah 8:11, 14:13]
Let us make man. Even though they [the angels] did not assist Him in His creation, and there is an opportunity for the heretics to rebel (to misconstrue the plural as a basis for their heresies), Scripture did not hesitate to teach proper conduct and the trait of humility, that a great person should consult with and receive permission from a smaller one. Had it been written: “I shall make man,” we would not have learned that He was speaking with His tribunal, but to Himself. And the refutation to the heretics is written alongside it [i. e., in the following verse:]“And God created (וַיִּבְרָא) ,” and it does not say,“and they created וַיִּבְרְאוּ.” - [from Gen. Rabbah 8:9]
... in our image in our form.
after our likeness to understand and to discern.
... and they shall rule over the fish Heb. וְיִרְדּוּ This expression contains both the meaning of ruling and the meaning of subservience. If he merits, he rules over the beasts and over the cattle. If he does not merit, he becomes subservient to them, and the beast rules over him. — [from Gen. Rabbah 8:12]
Even in this, there is one thing that we must keep in mind.
1. This view of creation most likely did not originate with Rashi, but with Maimonides and/or the other major rabbinical players of the 11th to 12th centuries, when the Jews were undergoing great percussion (10th-14th centuries) by the Catholic Church.
I would have to research it again (don't have the notes at hand), but is seems like this angel communication originated with Rashi (a French Jew) and/or with one or more of his (Spanish) contemporaries of the 11 century, if my rememberer serves me correctly. It should be found in most any good history of the Spanish Jews during the crusade period.
Bottom, line: The term Elohim is a designation, identification, and a description of one or more powerful beings, not a name. According to the biblical Hebrew language, The Queen of England could be legitimately referred to as Elohim.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
Last edited by A.W. Bowman; 01-22-2009 at 11:28 AM.
Reason: Correct
|
01-22-2009, 01:10 PM
|
|
Honorary Admin
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sandusky, Ohio
Posts: 6,287
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
From my acquaintance with Hebrew and Jewish scholars, Elohim, the plural had nothing to do with "number" as in quantity and had everything to do with "much." God is not many, but MUCH. Again, the plentitude of might!
I agree, that it was NEVER a name. The Jews would have NEVER done anything to desecrate the sacred YHVH as the proper name of God, which technically is the Hebrew word "to be." Hence, "I AM that I AM."
__________________
"Those who go after the "Sauls" among us often slay the Davids among us." Gene Edwards
Executive Servant http://www.newlife-church.org
|
01-22-2009, 02:00 PM
|
|
A Student of the Word
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
Good points. Yet, as to the plurality application of the word: See Ex 12:12, Gen 35:2,4; De 29:18, 32:17 and sometimes both Jehovah and and other gods are identified as in Ps 86:8, Ex 18:11, 22:19.
I hope this clears up some of the confusion around this term.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
|
01-22-2009, 02:02 PM
|
|
A Student of the Word
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: East Texas
Posts: 1,132
|
|
Re: Let Us Make Man: The Revelation
I thought I would also include the following from a text that I have been studying. Yes, I am still a student!
This is just one example of how difficult Hebrew really is, and how there can be so many “correct” ways to translate it into English (even into Greek). It also points out the extreme difficulty in studying the original intent of the N.T. writers, when the Greek has to be read and understood though its Hebrew world view – as illustrated by translating back through the Septuagint.
Special note: Even the Septuagint has its own set of problems. When using this document in the translation process, use only the Torah portion, as that is the most reliable Hebrew/Greek translation. The rest of the Tanakh contains many errors and is generally considered unreliable for translation purposes.
--------------------------
Abstract vs. concrete thought
Greek thought views the world through the mind (abstract thought). Ancient Hebrew thought views the world through the senses (concrete thought).
Concrete thought is the expression of concepts and ideas in ways that can be seen, touched, smelled, tasted and/or heard. All five of the senses are used when speaking, hearing, writing and reading the Hebrew language. An example of this can be found in Psalms 1:3; “He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season, and whose leaf does not wither”. In this passage the author expresses his thoughts in concrete terms such as; tree, streams of water, fruit and leaf.
Abstract thought is the expression of concepts and ideas in ways that cannot be seen, touched, smelled, tasted or heard. Abstract thought is a foreign concept to the Ancient Hebrew mind. Examples of Abstract thought can be found in Psalms 103:8; “The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger, abounding in love”. The words compassion, grace, anger and love are all abstract words, ideas that cannot be experienced by the senses. Why do we find these abstract words in a passage of concrete thinking Hebrews? Actually, these are abstract English words [are] used to translate the original Hebrew concrete words. The translators often translate this way because the original Hebrew makes no sense when literally translated into English.
Let us take one of the above abstract words to demonstrate the translation from a concrete Hebrew word to an abstract English word. Anger, an abstract word, is actually the Hebrew word [pictorial letters] / awph which literally means “nose”, a concrete word. When one is very angry, he begins to breath hard and the nostrils begin to flare. A Hebrew sees anger as “the flaring of the nose (nostrils)”. If the translator literally translated the above passage “slow to nose”, the English reader would not understand.
Ancient Hebrew Language and Alphabet, pg 21-22 by Jeff A. Benner
---------------
Conclusion: One must take great care in the selection and application of Bible study tools and techniques employed for purpose of leaning, understanding, and teaching others. Generally speaking, the standard English translations that we have at our disposal today serves us all quite well. However, for those who would be teachers of the word, and would desire to teach the deeper meanings of God word and expose the spiritual insights, truths and mysteries that are contained within these holy writings, employing the western world view as the prime filter in deciphering and understanding God’s word, will almost always lead to doctrinal error! Let there not be many masters (teachers) are not just idle words.
The state of the church, the body of Jesus Christ in the world today, stands as the premier witness against our teachers, as well as against us also! Why “us” and not just our teachers? Because we have not held our teachers accountable, even as Paul held Peter publicly accountable at Antioch, and as the assembly at Berea held Paul accountable in their own turn. It is past time that the body of Christ demands that teachers cease presenting and imposing their limited knowledge of scripture and personal agendas as the revealed will, instruction and purpose of God.
Biblical answer to unrepentant false teachers, shepherds and prophets: Upon the testimony of two or more witnesses before the assembled congregation, reject them (put them out of the assembly) and have nothing more to do with them.
Admonishment: Before taking such a drastic action, one better be absolutely convinced of the correctness of their actions, lest they in turn face the congregation in judgment for bearing false witness/testimony before God and man. It is kind of a spiritual checks and balances that we have failed to effectively use in the past.
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
Last edited by A.W. Bowman; 01-22-2009 at 02:09 PM.
Reason: Correct some English
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:29 PM.
| |