Could Barak Obama be the Anti Christ?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

The word used there for earth can also mean nation or country or people. There's an idiom in that verse though, so I'm not 100% sure which usage is correct. *I* would try putting nation or people in there...and find out what my teacher has to say about it. But, I push the envelope like that. lol

Sister, you might enjoy this message I preached concerning antichrist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1p4YYqnnLU

[SuzanneDeAZ]

Originally Posted by aak1972

From what I can recall from the scriptures there are a lot of similarities in Obama and what the Bible says the AC will be. First he will use deception will stand on a peace platform and be out of the east. You cant get much more anti-christ as the Muslim faith. IF he proves to be Muslim.

When will we find out for sure if he is a Muslim? Do you think he will take the oath on the Bible or the Koran. I hear if he really is Muslim and takes the oath on the Bible he will be killed. I also heard that the Muslims say it is ok to lie to the infideal, so him lying to not be Muslim to gain power is ok, but then sooner or later he has to show us his hand of cards that has been dealt to him.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

TRF it all happened in 70 AD. We are now living in the "new earth"! Isn't that exciting. The new earth is here and its full of murder, corruption, child abuse and homosexuality. Isn't Christ's Kingdom wonderful????????

great post

[shag]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

New Heaven and New Earth: The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. As a result, the former heaven (the Jewish Temple) and the former earth (the place the Temple sat, Jerusalem) is now replaced by a New Temple (the Holy Ghost in the redeemed) and a New Earth (the New Jerusalem, which is the Church, the City sitting on a hill that shines as a beacon of light to the world). Jesus said this transformation would happen at the passing of the Old Covenant's Law system: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Mat 5:18). So, if we do not currently have a new heaven and a new earth, we would consequently still be under every stipulation of the Law, including animal sacrifice for salvation. (See Mat 5:14; Isa 28:16; 1 Pet 2:4-6; Joh 2:19-21; Eph 5:19-22; Rev 21:1-21)

TK,
I find this interesting and will continue to study it.

I do have a problem believeing that the former heaven was the Temple, and the former earth was Jerusulem, as you wrote. I don't feel that the Jews (even in their "cultural/religous thinking")considered the temple to be heaven, nor would that they consider the temple to even to be a "symbol" of Heaven, please explain to me why and how you see it like that. Thanks.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by shag

TK,
I find this interesting and will continue to study it.

I do have a problem believeing that the former heaven was the Temple, and the former earth was Jerusulem, as you wrote. I don't feel that the Jews (even in their "cultural/religous thinking")considered the temple to be heaven, nor would that they consider the temple to even to be a "symbol" of Heaven, please explain to me why and how you see it like that. Thanks.

Thanks for the reply!

I condensed this down so it wouldn't be too terribly long. I hope this better explains my position.

Controversy over the terms "New Heaven" and "New Earth" develops when men read these as though they refer to some coming atmospheric or comic occurrence rather than leaving them in the biblical context of prophetic symbolism in which they were written.

Isaiah 66:7-8 is about the coming of Jesus and His New Covenant. Isaiah starts this chapter by condemning those who trust in physical things for their salvation: “[W]here is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest” (Isaiah 66:1)? He ends this with a promise that the new heaven and new earth (verses 20-23) will be established with Jews and Gentiles, of whom they will be His priests and Levites. This happened when the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant, and the former heaven (the Jewish Temple) and former earth (the place the Temple sat—Jerusalem) was replaced by a New Temple (the Holy Ghost in the redeemed) and a New Earth (the New Jerusalem, which is the Church, the City sitting on a hill that shines as a beacon of light to the world). (See Matthew 5:14; Isaiah 28:16; 1 Peter 2:4-6; John 2:19-21; Ephesians 5:19-22; Revelations 21:1-2) When this happens, Isaiah shows that God will receive worship from ALL flesh, year round. Revelation says that the gates of the New Jerusalem are open all the time, which is a reference to the Church’s openness to receive sinners, thusly confirming that it is not for a future fulfillment (See Revelation 21:25). Isaiah 66 ends with verse 24 pronouncing judgment on those who refuse its message. This came to pass during the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem (See Matthew 21:31-45; 23:29-39; Luke 21:6, 20, 24).

Within scriptural context, THE TEMPLE MOUNT WAS WHERE HEAVEN TOUCHED EARTH. Traditionally, from atop its plateau GOD FORMED THE ENTIRE WORLD including ADAM FROM THE DUST OF THE EARTH. It was also said to be the mountain where God asked Abraham to offer Isaac as a burnt sacrifice. Scripturally it was the mount where Isaac's son, Jacob, dreamt of a ladder stretching from its place up into heaven on which angels ascended and descended between its terrestrial and celestial span. Upon waking from this dream, Jacob called this mount "Beth-El," which means "House of God," i.e. "Temple." (See Genesis 28:10-22; 2 Chronicles 5:1-14; Matthew 12:3-4) In the years of King David, he purchased this mountain top after his army captured Jerusalem from the Jebusites. Later, to his son, King Solomon, David designated this mountain to be used for the Temple's building site. (See 2 Samuel 5:6-7, 24:24-25) Then during the New Testament, the Temple's mountain was the podium from where Jesus pronounced the judgment that was soon coming against His generation. (See Matthew 23:36-39, 24:21-23; Mark 13:1-4; Luke 21:5-7)

The heart of the Temple is the Most Holy Place. This is the "room" where man would meet with God once a year on Yom Kippur. This is analogous to all the meetings where man met with God on Mt Moriah. Jesus is the manifested "Holy of Holies."

There are credible sources for this interpretation of the Holy Place. One of these is the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Ha Kodesh is the Holy Place
4. Figurative
As the outer division of the sanctuary, into which, as yet, not the people, but only their representatives in the priesthood, were admitted while yet the symbols of the people's consecrated life (prayer, light, thanksgiving) were found in it, THE HOLY PLACE MAY BE SAID TO REPRESENT THE PEOPLE'S RELATION TO GOD IN THE EARTHLY LIFE, AS THE HOLY OF HOLIES REPRESENTED GOD'S RELATION TO THE PEOPLE IN A PERFECTED COMMUNION. In the Epistle to the Hebrews, the holy place is not largely dwelt on as compared with the court in which the perfect sacrifice was offered, and the holiest of all into which Christ has now entered (Christ passes “through” the tabernacle into the holiest, Heb_9:11). It pertains, however, evidently to the earthly sphere of Christ's manifestation, even as earth is the present scene of the church's fellowship. THROUGH EARTH, BY THE WAY WHICH CHRIST HAS OPENED UP, THE BELIEVER, ALREADY IN SPIRIT, FINALLY IN FACT, PASSES WITH HIM INTO THE HOLIEST (Heb_10:19; compare Heb_9:8; see Westcott, Hebrews, 233ff).

Kodesh Kodashim is the Holy of Holies:
4. Figurative
In the Epistle to the Hebrews we are taught that the true holy of holies is the heaven into which Jesus has now entered to appear in virtue of His own sacrifice in the presence of God for us (Heb 9:11). Restriction is now removed, and the way into the holiest is made open for all His people (Heb 10:19, 10:20).

Mt Moriah was the place on which the Temple sat. That mountain was the earth on which the approach to heaven was found. That was the old approach that God designed for man to approach His presence. In the New Covenant, man approaches the Almighty God through the Church and Jesus Christ. The Church has the foundational message whereby mankind can be reconciled to God. The Bible confirms this when it describes Jesus as mankind’s "propitiation." This makes Jesus the "MERCY SEAT."

"PROPTIATION," defined by Strong's:

G2435 hilasterion hil-as-tay'-ree-on
Neuter of a derivative of G2433; an expiatory (place or thing), that is, (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specifically) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple): - mercyseat, propitiation.

The Mercy Seat is THE PLACE within the HOLY OF HOLIES where the High Priest could come to make atonement for the sins of all mankind, and could supernaturally communicate with the Lord God.

Romans 3:25
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation [MERCY SEAT] through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

This shows Paul was saying Jesus is our "Mercy Seat." Since the Mercy Seat was located within the Temple, and beyond the veil (which is said to now be Jesus' flesh [Hebrews 10:20]—another reference to the Temple) of the Holy of Holies, we can see here another reference to Jesus being our MOST HOLY.

John said that Jesus is our ATONEMENT…

1 John 2:2
(2) And he is the propitiation [atonement] for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Paul said Jesus is our MEETING PLACE [Mercy Seat] through which we can talk with God…

1 Timothy 2:5
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John said that Jesus was THE TEMPLE OF THE NEW JERUSALEM (the Church)…

Revelation 21:22
(22) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

The term "Holy of Holies" is a rabbinic evasive synonym for "where the presence of God dwells." Every good Apostolic should amen that understanding because "where the presence of God dwells" perfectly describes Jesus!! Jesus WAS WHERE GOD WAS! The Holy of HOLIES is a double emphasis that says "GOD OF GODS." or "LORD of LORDS."

This is why I had said: The New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. As a result, the former heaven (the Jewish Temple) and the former earth (the place the Temple sat, Jerusalem) is now replaced by a New Temple (the Holy Ghost in the redeemed) and a New Earth (the New Jerusalem, which is the Church, the City sitting on a hill that shines as a beacon of light to the world). Jesus said this transformation would happen at the passing of the Old Covenant's Law system: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled" (Mat 5:18). So, if we do not currently have a new heaven and a new earth, we would consequently still be under every stipulation of the Law, including animal sacrifice for salvation (See Mat 5:14; Isa 28:16; 1 Pet 2:4-6; Joh 2:19-21; Eph 2:19-22; Rev 21:1-21).

[deacon blues]

You misinterpret Matt 24 so therefore you have to change obvious meanings of words like "heaven" and "earth" to mean something other than what most elementary school studentd undrstand them to mean in order to fit the paradigm. I suppose when Peter talks about the elements melting with fervent heat that was also fulfilled in 70 AD.

You r well versed in what u believe TK, but I am sorry that it doesn't hold water scripturally. I know u like lengthy debates and u like trying to prove you've got the truth on this, but anyone willing to study these issues will find plenty wrong with preterism. I know what I believe and see in Scripture. I don't need to go on another debate rampage with you to prove anything.

I challenge anyone curious about these issues to search the scriptures and pray. The Lord will guide you through the prophetic passages of his word. But beware of false doctrine concerning these things.

I will respond no further to anymore of these preterist diatribes. (Except with occasional sarcasm )

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You misinterpret Matt 24 so therefore you have to change obvious meanings of words like "heaven" and "earth" to mean something other than what most elementary school studentd undrstand them to mean in order to fit the paradigm. I suppose when Peter talks about the elements melting with fervent heat that was also fulfilled in 70 AD.

You r well versed in what u believe TK, but I am sorry that it doesn't hold water scripturally. I know u like lengthy debates and u like trying to prove you've got the truth on this, but anyone willing to study these issues will find plenty wrong with preterism. I know what I believe and see in Scripture. I don't need to go on another debate rampage with you to prove anything.

I challenge anyone curious about these issues to search the scriptures and pray. The Lord will guide you through the prophetic passages of his word. But beware of false doctrine concerning these things.

I will respond no further to anymore of these preterist diatribes. (Except with occasional sarcasm )

I'm not sure that TKBurk is totally wrong about everything. Some of the things he wrote in the above post make sense to me. I see that many aren't sure about post, mid or pre-tribulation. I certainly don't have a handle on it, myself. I don't know which view I absolutely believe. I see some things in all views that could be correct. I don't see any view that is totally correct either.

What has astonished me, of late, when I am reading Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. are the references that are actually pointing to the cross and Jesus Christ. I've never really noticed that before. I was looking for "black helicopters". lol

Anyway, not espousing any view. I'm just reading the books for what they are and trying to allow the Word to speak to me.

[shag]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You misinterpret Matt 24 so therefore you have to change obvious meanings of words like "heaven" and "earth" to mean something other than what most elementary school studentd undrstand them to mean in order to fit the paradigm. I suppose when Peter talks about the elements melting with fervent heat that was also fulfilled in 70 AD.

You r well versed in what u believe TK, but I am sorry that it doesn't hold water scripturally. I know u like lengthy debates and u like trying to prove you've got the truth on this, but anyone willing to study these issues will find plenty wrong with preterism. I know what I believe and see in Scripture. I don't need to go on another debate rampage with you to prove anything.

I challenge anyone curious about these issues to search the scriptures and pray. The Lord will guide you through the prophetic passages of his word. But beware of false doctrine concerning these things.

I will respond no further to anymore of these preterist diatribes. (Except with occasional sarcasm )

Luke 21:20 (which parallells Matt. 24:15)“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

You don't believe this scripture was fullfilled in Ad 70, when Jerusulem was wiped out by the armies?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You misinterpret Matt 24 so therefore you have to change obvious meanings of words like "heaven" and "earth" to mean something other than what most elementary school studentd undrstand them to mean in order to fit the paradigm. I suppose when Peter talks about the elements melting with fervent heat that was also fulfilled in 70 AD.

You r well versed in what u believe TK, but I am sorry that it doesn't hold water scripturally. I know u like lengthy debates and u like trying to prove you've got the truth on this, but anyone willing to study these issues will find plenty wrong with preterism. I know what I believe and see in Scripture. I don't need to go on another debate rampage with you to prove anything.

I challenge anyone curious about these issues to search the scriptures and pray. The Lord will guide you through the prophetic passages of his word. But beware of false doctrine concerning these things.

I will respond no further to anymore of these preterist diatribes. (Except with occasional sarcasm )

My understanding of "heaven" and "earth" in relation to the given subject is derived from my many years of studying Judaism. What I believe originates from such sources. I do not think any serious student of the Bible would agree with your summation that biblical understanding can be likened to elementary education. If you believe this is the case, maybe that is why you cannot grasp what I am saying.

Try reading Mat 28:18. Then ask yourself; is Jesus only talking about the celestial and terrestrial?

Be blessed in your studies!

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I'm not sure that TKBurk is totally wrong about everything. Some of the things he wrote in the above post make sense to me. I see that many aren't sure about post, mid or pre-tribulation. I certainly don't have a handle on it, myself. I don't know which view I absolutely believe. I see some things in all views that could be correct. I don't see any view that is totally correct either.

What has astonished me, of late, when I am reading Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. are the references that are actually pointing to the cross and Jesus Christ. I've never really noticed that before. I was looking for "black helicopters". lol

Anyway, not espousing any view. I'm just reading the books for what they are and trying to allow the Word to speak to me.

Amen!! That is what got me to first see Fulfilled Escahtology. When I saw the entire Bible is about Jesus , then the rest began to fall into place.

Jesus is God’s plan. He is the One whose testimony is the spirit of prophecy (See Rev 9:10), and the one to whom we must look to properly interpret the prophecies found within the pages of our Bible (See Joh 14:6; Heb 1:2, 12:2). Jesus said, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me” (Joh 5:39). Paul similarly agreed with this when he said, “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Gal 3:24). As we read through the pages of our Bibles, we see that from Genesis to Revelation, the Bible speaks about one master plan, of which Jesus was the focus. He was first mentioned in Gen 3:15 when God said, “And I will put enmity between thee [satan] and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy [satan’s] head, and thou shalt bruise his [Jesus’] heel.” This is, of course, the first promise recorded in our Bibles of Jesus coming as the Savior for mankind. This promise was made at the time of Adam’s fall, and was given as an assurance from God that mankind would someday receive from Him a spiritual reconciliation. This same promise is subsequently mentioned in different ways throughout the Old Testament. The good news is we do not have to wait for this reconciliation to arrive. The Apostle Peter believed this was true because he said he believed Jesus has NOW fulfilled these same promises (Act 3:18-26; 1 Pet 1:9-11).

Jesus was the plan that God made before the foundation of the world: (Rev 13:8) Angels announced His coming (Mat 1:20-25; Luk 1:26-38), a virgin brought Him into this world (Luk 1:26-35), Shepherds were called to His birth (Luk 2:8-17), the Magi came to pay Him homage (Mat 2:1-12), Simeon and Anna prayed to see His salvation’s arrival (Luk 2:22-38), John the Baptist prepared His way (Mat 3; Mar 1:1-11; Luk 3:1-23; Joh 1:19-34), the cross became His plan for the redemption of mankind (Mat 27:35-38; Mar 15:25-28; Luk 23:33-38; Joh 19:18-24; Rev 13:8), an empty tomb was His assurance of His reigning power in heaven and in earth (Mat 28:5, 6; Mar 16:4-6; Luk 24:1-6; Joh 20:6-17), the outpouring of His Holy Ghost on Pentecost was the reuniting of His Spirit with man’s (Act 1:4-8, 2:1-40; Joh 14:17; Rom 8:9), and on and on are the evidences found throughout the New Testament that Jesus was the One who came to fulfill all the redemptive promises found in the Bible.