Grace Verse Legalism

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Also, legalists usually do not know what legalism is. Grace is where God empowers us to change and legalism is where we do it through human energy without dependence upon God's power whatsoever.

Amen. And as I said before...man's dependence on following these manmade rules to the letter set men/women up for failure. We need God's grace to empower us.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Most folks concept of grace is a disgrace.
What is sin is the first question?
John replies "sin is a transgression of the LAW." 1Jn. 3:4
Paul speaks of the "LAW of life in Christ." Rom. 8:3

There is NO liberty without law. Contrary to the popular opinion on this forum the ministry is NOT a necessary evil.
The Holy Ghost sets men over the flock Acts 20:28, 1Pet. 5:1-4
The ministry is for the perfecting of the saints Eph. 4:11
Saints were commanded to remember Heb.13;7, obey 13:17, salute 13:21 those who had the RULE over them.

Jude and Peter's warnings about those who dispise GOVERNMENT are very strong 2Pet. 2:10-14, Jude 8-13

Most folks discussing LEGALISM and GRACE don't have a clue about either.

I'll say this as respectfully as I can. It is not my goal to offend.

I think you've made a great point, but perhaps not as you had hoped. We are to submit to the ministry, you are correct. But the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints, not for encumbering the saints with more law. The ministry is to LEAD, not DRIVE. Pastors are NOT the only office of ministry, and they certainly are NOT infallible. And they are NOT given authority to formulate codes and laws, force them on the saints, then call them sinful and rebellious if they don't obey what God has not commanded in the first place.

I respect your position that holiness and modesty require a specific code. I do not respect your assumption that because I don't agree with you that I don't have a clue about legalism or grace. I know many old-time saints that would send this entire generation of apostolics to hell because we don't see things the same way they do. Much like the "hold the fort" comment you made in another thread. It's an extremely arrogant and dangerous attitude to have. You know all the answers. You have all truth. So you'll hold that line no matter what. Unfortunately, you might miss some great revelation along the way.

If you only surround yourself with people with the same ideas and agree with you on everything, you'll never learn anything new. And if you only let a few in that have a different view - the only purpose being so you can show them how dumb they are and how smart you are, you'll never learn anything new and you'll only confirm how right you are in front of all the people in your club. But if you actually listen with an open mind instead of a made-up mind, you might learn that you DON'T have all the answers, you DON'T have a personal monopoly on truth, we're not all going to hell, that we don't hate holiness, that we love modesty and live a life of self-denial and purity despite not being encumbered with a set of rules devised by a group of 20th century men, however well-intentioned they may have been.

[Withdrawn]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Also, legalists usually do not know what legalism is. Grace is where God empowers us to change and legalism is where we do it through human energy without dependence upon God's power whatsoever.

Amen. The attitude is "God's grace isn't really enough, we'll have to restrain them by giving them a code of conduct or rule book." The rule book is the Bible, and the tutor is the Holy Ghost.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by jaamez

I'll say this as respectfully as I can. It is not my goal to offend.

I think you've made a great point, but perhaps not as you had hoped. We are to submit to the ministry, you are correct. But the ministry is for the perfecting of the saints, not for encumbering the saints with more law. Pastors are NOT the only office of ministry, and they certainly are NOT infallible. And they are NOT given authority to formulate codes and laws, force them on the saints, then call them sinful and rebellious if they don't obey what God has not commanded in the first place.

I respect your position that holiness and modesty require a specific code. I do not respect your assumption that because I don't agree with you that I don't have a clue about legalism or grace. I know many old-time saints that would send this entire generation of apostolics to hell because we don't see things the same way they do. Much like the "hold the fort" comment you made in another thread. It's an extremely arrogant and dangerous attitude to have. You know all the answers. You have all truth. So you'll hold that line no matter what. Unfortunately, you might miss some great revelation along the way.

If you only surround yourself with people with the same ideas and agree with you on everything, you'll never learn anything new. And if you only let a few in that have a different view - the only purpose being so you can show them how dumb they are and how smart you are, you'll never learn anything new and you'll only confirm how right you are in front of all the people in your club. But if you actually listen with an open mind instead of a made-up mind, you might learn that you DON'T have all the answers, you DON'T have a personal monopoly on truth, we're not all going to hell, that we don't hate holiness, that we love modesty and live a life of self-denial and purity despite not being encumbered with a set of rules devised by a group of 20th century men, however well-intentioned they may have been.

POTD!

[cliff d]

Bro.Epley The traditions held sacred by the Pharisees in many respects resemble local church standards that set parameters for dress and entertainment dictates. Standard is a term used by the church to describe what is deemed acceptable in the realm of adornment and amusement. Viewing standards from an organizational sphere,one might be inclined to say that the word standard is somewhat of an oxymoron,because there is nothing standard about the rules that govern local churches. It is probable that no two churches are exactly alike when it comes to these directives.
Standards seem to be in the eye of the beholder because what one brother thinks is proper, another deems sinful.
Factors that help determine one's beliefs in these areas include social upbringing,
geographical location,race and personality perceptions. Because of these variables there
is nothing standard about standards. In some parts of the country,one is not allowed to
wear even a wedding band and in another part of the country moderate jewelry may be
permitted.Both churches believe that they are within the scriptural perimeters of modesty.
We must teach that there are 3 levels of standards which I will adress later......I must go for a moment.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Oh my goodness!!! Someone actually paid attention to what I was saying and understood!!! Thank you!!!!!

Haha, you act surprised!

I heard a preacher make this statement once, and I can't disprove it - it actually makes a lot of sense. He was preaching about the man at the pool who had been lame for 38 years, and had no one to get him to the water when it was troubled.

Anyway, Jesus came along and asked the man if he would be (wanted to be) healed.

This may seem like a silly question, I mean who WOULDN'T want to be healed? But Jesus knew that if He healed the man, the man would have to walk on his own without anyone carrying him - he'd have to get a job and work for a living instead of having people give him money, and a host of other changes would have to happen in his life. In other words, he'd have to become a self-starter!

Makes sense to me!

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by cliff d

Bro.Epley The traditions held sacred by the Pharisees in many respects resemble local church standards that set parameters for dress and entertainment dictates. Standard is a term used by the church to describe what is deemed acceptable in the realm of adornment and amusement. Viewing standards from an organizational sphere,one might be inclined to say that the word standard is somewhat of an oxymoron,because there is nothing standard about the rules that govern local churches. It is probable that no two churches are exactly alike when it comes to these directives.
Standards seem to be in the eye of the beholder because what one brother thinks is proper, another deems sinful.
Factors that help determine one's beliefs in these areas include social upbringing,
geographical location,race and personality perceptions. Because of these variables there
is nothing standard about standards. In some parts of the country,one is not allowed to
wear even a wedding band and in another part of the country moderate jewelry may be
permitted.Both churches believe that they are within the scriptural perimeters of modesty.
We must teach that there are 3 levels of standards which I will adress later......I must go for a moment.

Can't wait - I enjoy many of your posts.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

Haha, you act surprised!

I heard a preacher make this statement once, and I can't disprove it - it actually makes a lot of sense. He was preaching about the man at the pool who had been lame for 38 years, and had no one to get him to the water when it was troubled.

Anyway, Jesus came along and asked the man if he would be (wanted to be) healed.

This may seem like a silly question, I mean who WOULDN'T want to be healed? But Jesus knew that if He healed the man, the man would have to walk on his own without anyone carrying him - he'd have to get a job and work for a living instead of having people give him money, and a host of other changes would have to happen in his life. In other words, he'd have to become a self-starter!

Makes sense to me!

This is so true. there are so many people who use 'working for God' as a way to get out of working and supporting their family. I think we could start another thread on that subject alone.

Blessings, Rhoni

[mfblume]

When God told Paul that His grace was sufficient for Paul, rather than see Paul delivered from the thorn in his flesh, grace referred to empowerment from God. Most usually think of unmerited favor, but that is sometimes incomplete. God continued to tell Paul that His strength is made perfect in weakness. So, grace is associated with divine empowerment. And when people miss this, they can fall prey to legalism. Legalism says you must do it in your human, will power alone. Make yourself serve God. make yourself obey rules. We need God's empowerment to live up to what He expects us to do.

When people are left with the impression that they must do this and not do that, then legalism is in the air. We need to leave people with the impression that without God's empowerment, we cannot do anything for Him.

What impression do churches leave people with?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jaamez

Amen. The attitude is "God's grace isn't really enough, we'll have to restrain them by giving them a code of conduct or rule book." The rule book is the Bible, and the tutor is the Holy Ghost.

Right. And this is when preachers actually replace God in the lives of the saints. Preachers are meant to teach the people how to hear from and be led by God -- not be led all the time by those preachers!