Free will versus reality!

[All4one]

Originally Posted by clgustaveson

the point of my argument has nothing to with with your salvation but your lifestyle.... If heaven is a reward then that is a the ultimate reward... anyway my question is how much of your life is dictated by punishment and reward AKA functionality?

Why would their be a reward for something we have no choice in?

[clgustaveson]

Originally Posted by All4one

Why would their be a reward for something we have no choice in?

And this is why I asked the Calvinists to stay out of this one...

[All4one]

I am not a Calvinist, just asking a question.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

"work out your own salvation" what does that mean?

It's either *all* God, or it's not. It can't be both.

You're the one who said

I believe salvation is all God, but how much we work out the salvation is us.

What does that mean to you?

[clgustaveson]

Originally Posted by All4one

I am not a Calvinist, just asking a question.

Well the question is a paradox, you only run into that problem if you believe in predestination so I asked Calvinists not to get involved because we don't need that kind of discussion.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by nahkoe

It's either *all* God, or it's not. It can't be both.

You're the one who said

What does that mean to you?

You didn't answer the question, NOW ANSWER IT! NOW!


At this time i see it that our salvation is all God as in he calls us, raises us up from our deadness of which we couldn't do our decide to do. But after this we have the will live close to him.

I liken it to my son who had no choice to be born I fathered him just like God did us, but he can choose to be pleasing to me or not.


How thou see it?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by clgustaveson

You are making some unnecessary assumptions and also going against the Arminian view... if God drew you to him then you had no free will in the matter. Sorry to burst you 100% Arminian bubble.

Just because your family was not religious doesn't mean that you were not conditioned to attend church... the point of my argument has nothing to with with your salvation but your lifestyle.... If heaven is a reward then that is a the ultimate reward... anyway my question is how much of your life is dictated by punishment and reward AKA functionality?

HE didn't irresistibly draw me- I could have rejected HIS drawing and that would have been an exercise of my free will, just like accepting his drawing was an exercise of my free will.

Also, as for your last question, it's still free will that's happening in the decision I make to want to avoid punishment and gain a reward. I mean I know people with no fear of hell (due to their lack of understanding or love for their sin) or people deceived into thinking they won't go to hell, but their free will is still in effect, they just happen to be people who are opposing themselves.

-Bro. Alex

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Sept5SavedTeen

HE didn't irresistibly draw me- I could have rejected HIS drawing and that would have been an exercise of my free will, just like accepting his drawing was an exercise of my free will.

Also, as for your last question, it's still free will that's happening in the decision I make to want to avoid punishment and gain a reward. I mean I know people with no fear of hell (due to their lack of understanding or love for their sin) or people deceived into thinking they won't go to hell, but their free will is still in effect, they just happen to be people who are opposing themselves.

-Bro. Alex

Jesus said "....how often would I have gathered ......YE WOULD NOT" Mt. 23:37 they resisted .
Also ".....and YE WILL NOT COME me, that ye might have life." Jn.5:40
Paul said "...seeing YE put it from you, and judge YOURSELVES unworthy of everlasting life." Acs 13:46

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

You didn't answer the question, NOW ANSWER IT! NOW!


At this time i see it that our salvation is all God as in he calls us, raises us up from our deadness of which we couldn't do our decide to do. But after this we have the will live close to him.

I liken it to my son who had no choice to be born I fathered him just like God did us, but he can choose to be pleasing to me or not.


How thou see it?

I don't see it like that at all. We're born again through the choice we make to be born again. If it is the case that GOD fathers a people who can then chose to fall away, and falling away is worse than having never been in the Truth... well I think you see where I'm going here. It is the will of GOD that we all be saved, and anyone that is made a child of GOD is made a child of GOD "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13) And if you want to say will of blood, flesh or man show that we can't chose salvation, I would disagree saying blood shows that Christianity is not a blood-line inherited thing (like Judaism), it is not conjured by the will of our flesh (which always opposes us, and our flesh isn't what reaches out to GOD, it is our spirit that is awakened at conversion) and it is not conjured by the will of man, and that I would gather would be a third party. I can not make you get saved, neither can a preacher or anyone else. You may say, "I am a man, and it can not be my will that saves me" my answer is that just like John 1 was comparing child birth to physical birth, and although mum and dad are the makers of the baby, the baby is the "first person" object in our analogy, and mum and dad are "third person" objects. Will of man is not the man wanting to be saved, but another man trying to make someone else saved, and that does not work. John 1 shows us it is GOD's will for us all to be saved, now we just have to get our will to line up with HIS. I was not so dead before Christ that I could not call out to HIM, I was NOT totally depraved, I had a seed of faith, and it grew and grew and so on.

-Bro. Alex

[All4one]

Originally Posted by clgustaveson

Well the question is a paradox, you only run into that problem if you believe in predestination so I asked Calvinists not to get involved because we don't need that kind of discussion.

Exactly, thats why I asked it! YOU are the one who said IF heaven is a reward!