Relevant/Journey OP Churches a Threat?

[timlan2057]

Originally Posted by Brad Murphy

Wouldn't something be either relevant... or irrelevant?

Seems that way to me.

If Chester Wright is against "relevancy" then I guess he ESPOUSES "irrelevancy."

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

True elder, just more of the same ole same ole.

Not really. The 'latter rain' and the charismatic movement were/are ones that emphasize spiritual gifts and that God is doing a 'new' thing. Things were added or emphasized to the already 'established' norms. The emergent church is based on an postmodern epistemology that completely changes the 'norms' of the way people are approached from one of truth proclamation to one of relationship. (I realize I'm generalizing) It is a movement that emphasizes the 'relative' and subjective.

Josh McDowell says that postmodernism- "A worldview characterized by the belief that truth doesn’t exist in any objective sense but is created rather than discovered.”… Truth is “created by the specific culture and exists only in that culture. Therefore, any system or statement that tries to communicate truth is a power play, an effort to dominate other cultures.”

That sums it up pretty good. It takes Paul's teaching of being 'all things to all men' and distorts it.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by timlan2057

Seems that way to me.

If Chester Wright is against "relevancy" then I guess he ESPOUSES "irrelevancy."

I think Wright has defined the relevancy movement as follows:

Let me share some things which I have discovered in just a small amount of
time while doing some research and checking:

First, a significant portion of these young men among us are questioning"when the blood is applied." The result of their "searching" is that they have concluded that it is applied at repentance, producing the conclusion that Water Baptism and Receiving the Holy Ghost is NOT necessary for salvation. They have concluded that all "holiness" is Phariseeism - that all of our standards are traditions of men, traditions of an older, out of date generation. This thinking is already affecting young men from Every area of our nation. I have several in my district that at leaning this direction. I have talked to several men from different areas of the country and it is happening to men they know as well.


Second, this group wants to reach the world through "relevancy" or
"relating" to the culture of this generation. A man who preached this past
General Conference uses people in ministry in his church who have NOT been
baptized in Jesus name and who have NOT received the Holy Ghost. He also
uses people in positions which represent his church to the public with NO
holiness standards at all. You can see for yourself atwww.thepointonline.tv and www.yourjourney.tv While I am not intending to single him out specifically, he is a very visible representative of the direction that many of our young men are going. Using him gave all of them a feeling of vindication and accreditation. There are many "buzz-words" associated with this new version of the manifestation of an old deceiving spirit. They think we older guys don't know the language, so therefore when they preach they say things that they expect that we will understand one way, while those "in the know" understand that they are saying something very different to them.

The relevancy movement is changing "church" to appeal to this generation
(their specific target generation is the 20-29 year olds). While I have a
great desire to see this generation reached also, I do not think that we
have to preach in tee shirts and blue jeans to reach them. Much of what so
disturbed the General Presbyters that they expressed about the Youth
Convention at last year's General Conference is not an isolated event, nor
just a trend. It is a movement - the relevancy movement. (Googleing
"relevancy" will shock you.) (By the way, the name "The Journey" is the
most "up-to-date" name for churches that are a part of the relevancy
movement - again, Google - "the journey church" and see for yourself.)
Bro. Haney I know that you are aware of my desire for progress. I have no
loyalty to religious traditions. I deeply desire to eliminate everything
from our doctrine and practices that are not completely founded upon the
Word of God. Therefore, I hope that you will understand and give some
credence to the concern that I have, since I have never been one for
maintaining the status quo. This email is written by someone who does
believe that change is positive. I am for changing the things which can and
should be changed. However, I am not for changing our Apostolic message,
only our un-Scriptural, non-Apostolic, ineffective methods.

In summation, Wright has inaccurately defined the relevancy movement as:

1. Believing one is saved at repentance
2. Believing holiness is Phariseeism
3. Appealing/relating to the 20-29 year demographic and culture by preaching in blue jeans and tee-shirts.

This revelation has come through "some research and checking". Who did he check with? the Posse?

The arguments made here are sophomoric, stale, trite, hoary, screwy and unfounded.

Also, who a pastor uses as volunteers is NO ONE'S BUSINESS but his own and the local church's.

I strongly believe CW owes MJ an apology ... there is no evidence that indicates MJ is not Acts 2:38 or believes Holiness is Phariseeism ....


Tell you what ....

The only old hag that has remained constant is the branding, the innate urge to tattle and tendency for exclusionary disfellowship.

All of this I find ironic, after Wright championed unity a year ago on the television issue.

What will continue to unfold is that the another entire pool of young, anointed, talented men will continue to leave ...
some of the best and brightest have left because of antedeluvian, obsolete, tradition-bound, politically-enamored, fiefdom-entrenched, upside-down thinking.

The org is back to it's mid 1990's numbers ... 8800 ministers ... down from 9200 about a year or 2 ago ...

Although recent periodicals boast of record numbers of new ministers joining ... the net loss is now -600.

Letters like Wright's have the potential to accelerate the bleeding.

Relevant enough?

When will local pastor's enjoy true autonomy without a neighboring GS running to daddy Headquarters with senseless gripes and spiritualized vendettas?

Unity, and maybe even, movement-wide revival, might happen when you MYOB.

And if you want to know how run a conference take a cue from last year's NAYC. No, really.

[SDG]

Lastly, this accusation by CW is horrific and divisive:

There are many "buzz-words" associated with this new version of the manifestation of an old deceiving spirit. They think we older guys don't know the language, so therefore when they preach they say things that they expect that we will understand one way, while those "in the know" understand that they are saying something very different to them

The implication is that those born again, washed in the blood, brethren involved in "relevant" ministries are motivated by a deceiving spirit and are intentional in their deception.

CW care to get a mulligan?

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Lastly, this accusation by CW is horrific:



The implication is that those born again, washed in the blood, brethren involved in "relevant" ministries are motivated by a deceiving spirit and are intentional in their deception.

this is a good example of attempting to manipulate people through shame. classic wright, but wrong.

[tv1a]

The relevant move may be the best thing to happen to a dying organizational structure. I hope our church goes that way. I'm tired of minimal results with decades old methods.

IBC Perspectives runs articles from a so-called church growth expert. I'm thinking how many does he have in his church. Wait. He doesn't pastor a church. If I want church growth advice. I'll ask the Manguns who have been consistently building a congregation for 30 - 40 years. But those who can do. Those who can't teach.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

this is a good example of attempting to manipulate people through shame. classic wright, but wrong.

I agree this is the modus operandi in many instances ...

however, CW's audience was one man ... El Jefe (KH)

The intent seems nothing more than character assassination (evident in the singling out of one man) under the banner of a spiritual cause....

and to push an agenda for an upcoming political pow-wow (GB Winter meeting) based on a perceived threat.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Not really. The 'latter rain' and the charismatic movement were/are ones that emphasize spiritual gifts and that God is doing a 'new' thing. Things were added or emphasized to the already 'established' norms. The emergent church is based on an postmodern epistemology that completely changes the 'norms' of the way people are approached from one of truth proclamation to one of relationship. (I realize I'm generalizing) It is a movement that emphasizes the 'relative' and subjective.

Josh McDowell says that postmodernism- "A worldview characterized by the belief that truth doesn’t exist in any objective sense but is created rather than discovered.”… Truth is “created by the specific culture and exists only in that culture. Therefore, any system or statement that tries to communicate truth is a power play, an effort to dominate other cultures.”

That sums it up pretty good. It takes Paul's teaching of being 'all things to all men' and distorts it.

while mcdowell's definition of pomo may in some respects be attributable to hard core pomo (not so much anymore though and even then it's an elitist view) and in some respects to some people in the EMERGENT movement, it does not represent in the slightest the majority of pomo nor does it talk about the larger segment of the church movement usually called 'emergent' which is actually 'emergING'. the 'emerging' stream of thought does not seek to change doctrine, or as Rev. Epley says " a doctrine of 'no doctrine' ", but only wishes to change the way we do church and change some of the points of emphasis from what has happened in the past. the identification by this group as 'emerging' relates only to their hope to be the church for their generation as their fathers were the church to theirs. too often people try to lump all emergent/emerging people into one lump and that no more fair than to say that all pentecostals are snake handlers or that all op's think alike.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I agree this is the modus operandi in many instances ...

however, CW's audience was one man ... El Jefe (KH)

The intent seems nothing more than character assassination (evident in the singling out of one man) under the banner of a spiritual cause....

and to push an agenda for an upcoming political pow-wow (GB Winter meeting).

i thought wright 'leaked' this letter. no?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

i thought wright 'leaked' this letter. no?

Is there evidence he leaked his own letter to Haney?

I'd find that unlikely but feasible.

Leaking it would have been a secondary intent that would have probably occurred some time later for other reasons.